3/6 LO8 - Marginal Spot - AA43ss

[mkflsam]

I'm still in the process of reading every post Buzz has ever made, but until then I may be asking silly questions, sorry!

I understand this is a very marginal spot, but I wonder if the reads help things at all. Both players see 55%+ of the flops, one sees over 70%. They aren't overly aggressive though.

Is this worth looking for the 2nd nut low? I really thought my high was good on the turn. The overcall on the river changed my mind though.

If I misplayed any streets, please let me know. May be I'm just stubborn, is the flop a check/fold?

Party Poker
Limit Omaha Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
7 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is UTG with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7.33SB, 4 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6.67BB, 4 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (9.67BB, 4 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, Hero folds.

Results:
Final pot: 11.67BB

[neverforgetlol]

i'd actually just fold the flop. you are only drawing to a 2 for 1/2 the pot.

[Xellos]

This is fine, folding on the flop would be ridiculous, and folding on the turn wouldn't be that good either. 7 handed there's a pretty good chance A3 is the best low draw. There's a decent chance that if something on the board pairs your 2 pair will be good, it's not even inconceivable that AA is the best high hand right now, and up against a low draw or flush draw. I wouldn't call the river, especially a horrible one like this, but thinking about folding this flop is a recipe for disaster, especially 7 handed.

[stewcrew]

have you considered that while the low draw is probably good its a draw, and the high hand is on the fence too. the flop while middle cards is still connected.

i would be wary with both low and high hands. u MIGHT be ahead with the high and the low which while likely to be the best low hand is still a draw.

if i miss the turn here i check fold.

[neverforgetlol]

[ QUOTE ]
This is fine, folding on the flop would be ridiculous, and folding on the turn wouldn't be that good either. 7 handed there's a pretty good chance A3 is the best low draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's nice, but you have little chance to scoop here.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
If I misplayed any streets, please let me know.

[/ QUOTE ]MKFLSam - In my humble opinion, you overplayed your starting hand (aces). Overplaying aces in Omaha-8 is a fairly common mistake.

Betting round #1 - You can raise with this hand if you like. I don't think it's a great raise, but I don't think it's a terrible raise either. I wouldn't generally raise with this starting hand, but sometimes I might. Two opponents who see most flops tag along - doesn't mean much one way or the other.

Betting round #2 - You don't have a great fit with this flop, but then since maybe nobody else does either, you bet. Fine.

But then the bet goes sour. UTG+1 raises - doesn't mean much by itself - could be a flopped straight, could be a set, could be any of various lows, could be lots of stuff, including nothing much at all. But MP1's calling the double flop bet is very scary. UTG+1 doesn't necessarily have anything specific to make it a double bet - could simply be an attempt to get one-on-one. However, although it's hard to say for sure, MP1 should have some sort of decent flop fit to call the double bet, very possibly a nut low draw with some other stuff. Not for sure... maybe MP1 simply doesn't believe either you or UTG+1. But I'd tentatively put MP1 on ace-deuce-X-Y, maybe with also a pair or two or A2XY with a flush draw. There are some other possibilities as well, but since Hero is mainly drawing for low after this flop action, Hero should be concerned about the distinct possibility that MP1 has a better low draw (i.e. A2XY).

At any rate, you call the raise. Fine. When you call the raise, you're mainly drawing for a deuce on the turn. You don't really quite have favorable (half pot)odds to draw for a deuce on the turn, but I'd call anyhow because of image considerations and because UTG+1 might check on the 3rd betting round, depending on the turn, and you might get to see the river for no more than the single additional small bet on the 2nd betting round.

If the turn is not a deuce, you have to decide whether or not to continue. I think you do continue with an ace and maybe some other cards on the turn, but mainly you're drawing for a deuce.

[ QUOTE ]
Is this worth looking for the 2nd nut low?

[/ QUOTE ]It is before the flop and even before the turn. But after the turn it is not.

[ QUOTE ]
I really thought my high was good on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]That's how people overplay aces in Omaha-8.

[ QUOTE ]
May be I'm just stubborn, is the flop a check/fold?

[/ QUOTE ]I believe I'd play the flop the same as you did. But then I would not like the raise and the call of the double-bet. Not at all! And although I'd call the raise, I'd back way off when the turn was not a deuce.

Betting round #3. The king on the turn really stinks. You can't tell where you are in the hand. You don't know if UTG+1 has the flopped straight, a set, or something else... and you don't know if MP1 has the nut low draw, the same low draw as you, or something else. You did your best to find out, but you drew a blank. Now you're out of position and hard pressed to bet again.

But I think you have to either bet again, fully expecting another raise and call... or you have to check/fold. I don't like check/calling at all here. (Check-raising, the other possibility is not sane). I think you made a $6 mistake when you check/called here. Not a disaster, but they add up.

Betting Round #4 - Pretty hard for you to call here after UTG+1 bets and MP1 calls. I'm certainly not implying you should call. (You shouldn't).

But look back to your check/call on the turn. When you call on the turn, you should realize that if you check the river, someone behind you will almost certainly bet.

And then unless the river is a deuce, you'll either fold or chase/call with the 2nd-nut low (or chase with trip aces plus the third nut low). Better to simply concede after the turn, saving one big bet.

Buzz

[mkflsam]

Thanks for the responses all.

It turns out both players were drawing to the flush, and one did in fact have the nut low draw as well.

I was against [ 6s, 2s, As, 3s ] and [ 9s, 5s, 9h, 2c ].

I agree this hand is definitely iffy, I was just wondering if you're more likely to see a river vs the two worst players at the table who see almost every flop.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Is this worth looking for the 2nd nut low?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is before the flop and even before the turn. But after the turn it is not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm getting about 8.5-1 on the turn here to draw at a very iffy high hand (like you said, Ace, may be a low card pairing would be good) and possibly the best low draw (I know, not likely). How do you decide if 8.5-1 isn't good enough? Do you figure half the time you do hit, you're not good, 30% of the time you hit and get the entire half, and 20% you split half? What kind of %'s would you assign with this type of draw in this situation? Does the cold call on the flop by MP usually signify a high hand, perhaps waiting until a high turn card to pound, or the nut low draw hoping to keep me in with a cold call? I guess these are the kinds of things I struggle with as they usually can be answered with experience, which I lack right now.

[Buzz]

MKFL Sam - I sometimes play against opponents like this. They're contributors, but hard to play against because you can't put them on cards.

Looking at the two hands of your two opponents, I can't tell for sure which hand belonged to UTG+1 and which hand belonged to MP1. I presume since it's hard to believe anybody could possibly call a river bet here with A236, the call must have been from 2599 (trip nines). And since MP1 had the trip nines, I presume UTG+1 semi-bluff raised on the flop, semi-bluff bet the turn, and then purely bluffed on the river.

And MP1 is evidently a calling station who hung in there with garbage and made trip nines on the river for a winner.

Very hard for me to advise you how to play against these buffoons.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm getting about 8.5-1 on the turn here to draw at a very iffy high hand

[/ QUOTE ]Yes.

If you play a high pair, miss on the flop, and then continue to play an overpair (even aces), although you will make two pairs when the board pairs, in a loose game you will usually lose to trips or a full house. Two pairs does win a lot. But in general I don't think you should play to make two pairs, even aces over, in Omaha-8. Put simply, in a loose game two pairs, especially with one pair on the board, lose much more than they win.

As a starting hand, 2599d certainly qualifies as garbage. And if you do see the flop with 2599d, 78J does not qualify as a hand/flop fit.

But you probably already know that. The question becomes, "How do you play against calling stations who play trash hands?"

I think you do it just as you did here, except that I would have folded on the third betting round rather than the fourth. (And one could make a good case for check/folding on the second betting round).

And what do you do against opponents who semi-bluff, semi-bluff, and bluff on three successive betting rounds?

I don't know. If they don't do it too often, I suspect they are occasionally successful against me. Occasionally, because I try to avoid being in the position of getting bluffed by getting out of a hand after the flop when I have a poor fit. And if I'm in a hand at the river, I usually call a bet on the last betting round.

In a full game with a lot of players seeing the flop, I'd dump this hand after the flop. I wouldn't make a move to steal the pot if more opponents had seen the flop.

However, with only had six opponents to start and then with only two opponents who saw this flop with me, I think I might play just as Hero did here on the second betting round. But when my attempt to steal the pot didn't work, I'd quickly back off.

[ QUOTE ]
I was just wondering if you're more likely to see a river vs the two worst players at the table who see almost every flop.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, but I wouldn't get that far.

[ QUOTE ]
How do you decide if 8.5-1 isn't good enough?

[/ QUOTE ]8.5 to 1 pot odds are only half of the picture. Hand odds (the odds against making a winning hand) are the other half. You compare pot odds (actually implied pot odds or reverse implied pot odds) to hand odds, but hand odds for me have never been and probably never will be the odds against making two pairs. I'm never going to be drawing for two pairs. When I make two pairs, sometimes I play them. But in general when playing Omaha-8 I don't draw to make two pair.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you figure half the time you do hit, you're not good, 30% of the time you hit and get the entire half, and 20% you split half?

[/ QUOTE ]Something like that.

[ QUOTE ]
What kind of %'s would you assign with this type of draw in this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]I think your draw is for a deuce for low and for only half the pot. You might continue with certain cards other than a deuce, depending on your read of your opponents. But opponents who play garbage are impossible to read.

You can't punish Omaha-8 opponents for playing garbage when you have nothing more substantial than a pair of aces for high and a four card draw for half the pot for low. (You're basically playing garbage yourself).

[ QUOTE ]
Does the cold call on the flop by MP usually signify a high hand, perhaps waiting until a high turn card to pound, or the nut low draw hoping to keep me in with a cold call?

[/ QUOTE ]I believe MP1's cold call is more likely to be a nut low draw hoping to keep you in with a non-nut low draw than anything else. But not always, and (assuming MP1 has the 2599) not in this particular case.

Buzz