2pr on 4th vs. probable over pairs

[Todd]

Besides folding on 3rd, which I contemplated, but didnt do. Do you go to war on 4th vs. a probable split Aces and Kings?

Outcome isnt really important, but I figure over pairs are not going to fold, no matter what, and playing it like this I can get away from the hand if either pairs their boards by 6th.

Pretty ugly play by hero, if you ask me....

Any thoughts woudl be appreciated.

T

7 Card Stud High ($0.50/$1.00), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.80 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 4: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (9.30 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (6.65 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds

6th Street - (9.65 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River - (12.65 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___calls
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___bets

Total pot: (15.65 BB)

Results (in white):<font color="white">

Total pot $15.65 | Rake $0.50

Seat 1: [3d Kd Kc 7d 3h Qs 9h]

Hero: [Qc 4s Qd 4d 6h 6s Tc]

Seat 3: [Qh Ad Ah 5s Ts 6c As] (three of a kind, Aces)

</font>

[lstream]

You either need to fold third or raise into the ace to try and get this heads-up. I would be real tempted to just fold rather than risk being caught in the middle between the ace and the king. Even if/when you catch two pair, the hand is very difficult to play.

[Andy B]

With a crappy kicker and an Ace yet to act, third is a fold. The raiser sees a King out and an Ace behind him and yet he raises. I think it's very, very likely that he has split Kings.

Anyway, after that, you're stuck. I don't see any point in raising on fourth or fifth. I would probably bet sixth and check the river. When the Ace comes out betting on the river, it's hard to imagine that you're any good, but I pay him off like an ATM anyway.

[Big Limpin]

Your position sucks (ace on yer left) for getting this HU. Thats a good reason to bail, i think.

[jon_1van]

You can reraise 3rd and hope to get heads up...but I probably just call because I close the action and I don't want to bloat the pot (the Ace might not raise...so you might not get HU)

I don't immediately bale because 1 player could have a hand like K77 or a flushdraw so I'm not in too bad of shape.


When I spike on 4th I go freakin crazy trying to get HU.

If you spike this good and everyone else rags off and you just call....you should have folded 3rd.

[Todd]

Part of the fun of this site, is putting up a hand you know you screwed up royally, and taking your lumps. I think it helps to reinforce good decision making, as well as driving home the idea that aggression can be +EV even in a situation like this where it may only be moderately so.

7-card Stud Hi:
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kc Kd 7d 3d 150577 30.12 349423 69.88 0 0.00 0.301
4s Qc Qd 4d 175473 35.09 324516 64.90 11 0.00 0.351
5s Ad Ah Qh 173939 34.79 326050 65.21 11 0.00 0.348


If you succeed in driving out the Ks, then your EV rises to 59%. So going to war seems like the best bet, hoping of course that neither villian has 2pr

T

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]
Part of the fun of this site, is putting up a hand you know you screwed up royally, and taking your lumps. I think it helps to reinforce good decision making, as well as driving home the idea that aggression can be +EV even in a situation like this where it may only be moderately so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

But to reiterate....you called on 3rd. When you did that what were you hoping for? Do you see how catching good AND just calling isn't consistent.

You don't want to "call because I have a straight draw" and then hit your straight and then shutdown...it makes no sense.

[Todd]

The positive EV i am talking about is going to war on 4th, as you suggested, and trying to knock out one of your opponents.

I totally pussed out, since I figured neither villian would fold. I played it like a deer in the headlights.

So I appreciate your reiterrating, and I did get it the first time.

For me posting a hand like this is meant to be a severe lesson in self-assessment, much the better when the criticism is pointed. I cannot just ignore it and say, well villians got lucky, since it was my passivity that allowed them to do so.

The bottom line, for me, is that I have a tendency to revert to a passive game, since that is how I played for many years, in friendly games, before I started to learn how to play.

This is shown very well here. It also crops up when I have a very live flush draw on 4th st. It is very very hard for me to raise this hand, even into a field of 4 villians. I reason that I will get paid off if I make the hand, and by not raising, they may assume that I am not sitting on a 4 flush.

But as others have said, good things happen wehn you are aggressive. Others may fold immediately, they may fold to a continuation bet on the next street, they may misread your hand, etc.

This is a lesson that I am constantly trying to drive into my game, and self-assessment, and criticism on this board, and the STT board are the places where I get the most value.

So thank you, for taking the time to respond.

Todd

[Kevin1962]

I wopuld have reraised after hiting two pair on 4th Street to be heads up against the Ace....the only reason the King stayed in (it looks like) is he sensed weakness from you and the Ace. Plus the reraise on Fourth Street represents a set of two pair and you'd have known what you were up against. The sixth street Q was death and both your opponents knew you had two pair so there really was only 4th and fifth street to put your claim on the pot.