Love pocket pairs, but too much with those treys?

Paul77 · #1 08-10-2006, 11:34 AM

Thought I could get some feedback here. I think the pre-flop move was an error as calling is fine, but with two bets back to me it's clear I'm behind, so I should fold there. 3-way isn't enough. Flop play is fine in my book; plenty of money in there to see what happens. Turn brings the inside-straight draw, so I think that is okay as I've got 6 outs now; any trey or five. I'm not too worried about a diamond. River well is the bad beat for the rockets.

I play many pocket pairs, per the advice of SSHE by Miller/Sklansky, but of course there it is more loose games, and they don't advocate calling two raises even if I'm in the pot already. I know this hand makes me look a bit like a donkey, but I'd still appreciate feedback.

Thanks,
Low-limit Paul from Mpls.

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
Hero calls, 1 fold, MP2 raises, CO (poster) calls, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls, MP2 caps, CO folds, Button calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (15.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Button folds, Hero calls.

River: (11.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 15.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has 3d 3c (three of a kind, threes).
MP2 has Ac Ad (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins 15.25 BB.

Haupt_234 · #2 08-10-2006, 11:57 AM

I would dump 33 PF unless the table was a donkville. After you limp, though, calling all of the raises is standard.

The flop is pretty close... you are getting 17:5 to 1 on a 23:1 shot. But you are in great position to c/r the flop aggressor which, in implied odds, should make up for the defecit you are recieveing on the flop. So I peel here as well.

I would fold the turn, though.

Haupt_234

SixForty · #3 08-10-2006, 12:10 PM

I agree with Haupt's assessment for the whole hand except:

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I would fold the turn, though.

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Seriously? You'd fold the turn getting 10-1 on what is pretty much a definite 4 outer, and probably a solid 6 outer, and a perfect chance to checkraise if we hit?

I'd call the turn.

Paul77 · #4 08-10-2006, 12:25 PM

>>I would dump 33 PF unless the table was a donkville. After you limp, though, calling all of the raises is standard.

I really do disagree there with you, if you mean you'd always dump a small pocket pair for one bet. I'm a big advocate of playing any pocket pair for one bet, and feel calling is okay if it's two back to you. At a very loose table, I'll even cold-call. SSHE really is strong in it's advocation of small pocket pairs. In my example pre-flop play was obvioulsy an error as it's two SB back to me, meaning I'm behind, but if you flop a set you're in like flint, and moreso small pocket pairs are easy to get away from when they miss. Difference is between limping and cold-calling of course though.
Paul

Haupt_234 · #5 08-10-2006, 12:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
really do disagree there with you, if you mean you'd always dump a small pocket pair for one bet. I'm a big advocate of playing any pocket pair for one bet, and feel calling is okay if it's two back to you. At a very loose table, I'll even cold-call. SSHE really is strong in it's advocation of small pocket pairs.

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Yes, SSHE recommendations are for games with flops of 5-7 players. So, like I said, I only like the UTG limp if the table is donkville.

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In my example pre-flop play was obvioulsy an error

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The PF play was standard after your limp.

Haupt_234

SixForty · #6 08-10-2006, 12:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I really do disagree there with you, if you mean you'd always dump a small pocket pair for one bet. I'm a big advocate of playing any pocket pair for one bet, and feel calling is okay if it's two back to you. At a very loose table, I'll even cold-call. SSHE really is strong in it's advocation of small pocket pairs. In my example pre-flop play was obvioulsy an error as it's two SB back to me, meaning I'm behind, but if you flop a set you're in like flint, and moreso small pocket pairs are easy to get away from when they miss. Difference is between limping and cold-calling of course though.
Paul

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This depends entirely on table conditions though. I'm certainly with you on limping small pocket pairs every chance I get. Moreso than most.

But if the table is one where many pots are raised preflop and end up 3 or 4 handed, then it's not an ideal situation to be limping 33. If you expect an isolation raise from your left pretty often, then again, limping 33 isn't all that great.

But if the table is consistently seeing the flop 7 handed for one bet each, or even two bets each, then that's okay. Or 5 or 6 handed for one bet each.

So it all depends on table conditions.

The reasoning why is displayed in your exact hand. You put in 4 bets preflop. Since the odds of flopping a set are 7.5-1, you need to be winning a pot that is over 30 small bets, or 15 big bets. (And that can't include all the bets that you put in yourself.) So in this hand right here, you had to go all the way to the river to hit, and you still didn't cover that 7.5-1 mark that you should be shooting for.

Playing small pairs requires getting in for as cheap as possible, and having as many people around putting in as many bets as possible after the flop if you hit. Table conditions are key as to whether or not you can play them profitably.

adios · #7 08-10-2006, 12:59 PM

I don't think he noticed the gut shot on the turn as I'm sure Haupt_234 would call. Definite call on the turn IMO. Good post about limping with small pocket pairs in EP in your other response in this thread IMO. Also I agree with Haupt_234, I call when it gets back to me pre-flop FWIW.

Paul77 · #8 08-10-2006, 01:08 PM

>>Yes, SSHE recommendations are for games with flops of 5-7 players. So, like I said, I only like the UTG limp if the table is donkville.

Point taken; I guess I'll still limp most of the time as I find games usually have 5 players pre-flop, but won't limp if I know there are likely raisers to act after me and I'm at a tight-aggressive table, but a rarity. I probably play pocket pairs too much, but nearly always limp, dumping PRESTO! (55) or lower if I have to cold-call. Of course you factor in position too.

>>The PF play was standard after your limp.

Well, for one more bet but for two? I suppose you could call for two small bets but I think I should see there I'm clearly behind, and it's 8-to-1 to flop a set. I think post-flop I did okay, but here I just played the pocket pair too loosely.

Thanks,
Paul

Haupt_234 · #9 08-10-2006, 01:08 PM

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I don't think he noticed the gut shot on the turn as I'm sure Haupt_234 would call. Definite call on the turn IMO.

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Yep, I forgot about the gutshot when typing the turn action. Peel away.

Haupt_234