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#11
08-05-2006, 04:42 AM
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Re: 100/200 Bellagio Floor Decision
when there is ambiguity i think it is best for the best hand to win. especially since it was tabled and easily retrievable. its possible that someone could angle shoot but i think a lot more likely that innocent mistakes or incoherent verbal declerations get rewarded than someone shooting an angle and getting a reaction from player.
matt 
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#12
08-05-2006, 04:32 PM
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Re: 100/200 Bellagio Floor Decision
[ QUOTE ]
when there is ambiguity i think it is best for the best hand to win. especially since it was tabled and easily retrievable. its possible that someone could angle shoot but i think a lot more likely that innocent mistakes or incoherent verbal declerations get rewarded than someone shooting an angle and getting a reaction from player. matt [/ QUOTE ] I agree with this analysis for the most part. ~ Rick
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#13
08-05-2006, 04:40 PM
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Re: 100/200 Bellagio Floor Decision
[ QUOTE ]
Kinda hard to believe that player A heard all the streets but then didn't hear the river. If he tables face up but there is no bet accompanying his cards I think that is a fold but the dealer seems to have botched this a bit not clarifying. [/ QUOTE ] I'd tend to award the pot to player A since it was tabled but if anyone botched this up it is Player A, not the dealer. Player A could have down a better job protecting his hand, borrowed chips to play the hand, made his actions 100% clear if he went to verbal action, and asked for clarification if he didn't understand the other player's action on the river. Agree it is strange that he could hear all other streets but not the river. Regarding verbal action, I almost never say the word bet in a limit game. Sounds too much like "check". Let your chips speak. ~ Rick
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#14
08-05-2006, 04:45 PM
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Re: 100/200 Bellagio Floor Decision
[ QUOTE ]
I'd be VERY surprised if player A is allowed to call here. A bet was made and he tossed his cards towards the muck making no effort to call the bet. It's a clear fold. If he is allowed to call here it could be used at any time as a huge angle shot. [/ QUOTE ] Player A can get the hand based on the fact that it appears to be a one time thing. His chips were on the way and it looks like this was taking into account, along with the misunderstanding of the verbal action. But in normal circumstances a player who tosses his hand forward while facing a bet (without calling or raising) should always have his hand killed. ~ Rick
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#16
08-06-2006, 12:07 AM
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Re: 100/200 Bellagio Floor Decision
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Kinda hard to believe that player A heard all the streets but then didn't hear the river. If he tables face up but there is no bet accompanying his cards I think that is a fold but the dealer seems to have botched this a bit not clarifying. [/ QUOTE ] I'd tend to award the pot to player A since it was tabled but if anyone botched this up it is Player A, not the dealer. Player A could have down a better job protecting his hand, borrowed chips to play the hand, made his actions 100% clear if he went to verbal action, and asked for clarification if he didn't understand the other player's action on the river. Agree it is strange that he could hear all other streets but not the river. Regarding verbal action, I almost never say the word bet in a limit game. Sounds too much like "check". Let your chips speak. ~ Rick [/ QUOTE ] Rick, Player A is the one who actually had chips.
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#17
08-06-2006, 03:48 AM
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Re: 100/200 Bellagio Floor Decision
If player A had simply turned his hand face up in front of him this whole mess could have been avoided.
The muck does not have magic powers. We know what A's hand is, it's live, and it's $200 to him.
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#18
08-06-2006, 05:23 AM
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Re: 100/200 Bellagio Floor Decision
[ QUOTE ]
It looks like you have the missing chips backwards...A has chips, B is a rack behind. Does that change any of your thoughts? [/ QUOTE ] One thing it doesn't change is the fact I have to remind myself not to read detailed posts when I'm in a hurry and/or winding down from a set of SNGs (I six to nine table at full concentration, and often start surfing/reading threads when I'm at three tables). What follows in italics is a rewrite of what I posted under Deathdonkey with the correction regarding who had chips bolded: Player A can get the hand based on the fact that it appears to be a one time thing. His opponent's chips were on the way and it looks like this was taking into account, along with the misunderstanding of the verbal action. But in normal circumstances a player who tosses his hand forward while facing a bet (without calling or raising) should always have his hand killed. As an aside, with the explosion of small or fixed buy in no limit games, I'd like to see the rules move towards killing a hand that is turned up when it is facing a clear bet (a reasonable person could conclude that the bet wasn't clear in the OPs example). This would prevent the angle of turning your hand up with "just a little" forward motion, getting a reaction from an inexperienced opponent, and making your play accordingly. In addition, this direction is sort of where tournament poker is heading, and many new players are coming in after watching tournaments on TV. Sorry about the mix-up. ~ Rick
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#19
08-06-2006, 05:39 AM
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Re: 100/200 Bellagio Floor Decision
[ QUOTE ]
Player A is the one who actually had chips. [/ QUOTE ] Sorry about that. I did a rewrite under Deathdonkey above for that previous reply. Too tired to do another one for the above but would like to emphasize that if Player A was facing a clear bet (obviously he is being given the benefit of the doubt that he didn't hear the bet from Player B (Player B having made a verbal bet), his hand would definitely be dead as explained in my other rewrite. One more point. Had Player A's apparent fold "caused action behind " (e.g., Player B perhaps revealing a busted river bluff bet) then a good floor should rule that Player A's hand is dead. ~ Rick
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#20
08-06-2006, 06:42 AM
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Re: 100/200 Bellagio Floor Decision
One other facter that OP didn't mention, so I have no idea if it applies to this particular hand--I just have the funny feeling that it does.
I'm talking about people who feel the need to use their hands when they're betting without chips. They point to the spot on the table where they would place their chips, if they had any, and announce, "Bet!" The trouble with this is, bringing your index finger down to point to a spot on the table looks like a check, and the word "bet" sounds like a check. Again, this may or may not have even happened here. But I feel it should be considered.
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