3/6 Kill Pot Question

[Jasper_C]

I've been reading is Forum for a long time but this is the first time I have posted a hand to review and I am looking for some constructive advice.

This hand was played in a live 3/6 Kill game in a Kill pot, There were some players highly critical of my play saying I got too aggressive.
Could you folks tell me what you think of my play...

This is a Kill pot so the stakes for this hand are 6/12 and the Hero is the one posting the Kill Blind of $6. One other note in this game while it is 9-handed there is just a big blind after the button, there is no small blind.
My reads at the table are:
UTG+1: is a calling station type player, will call with any draw or backdoor draw that can win, however if he raises as a typicle calling station he does have the goods.
MP1: is more of a trickey player but other then that he is a newer player to the table (I've played with him before but its been 2 months)
BTN: is still a calling station type player but will bet any hand like TP/No Kicker.

Hero has: K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the CO.
UTG Folds, UTG+1 Calls, UTG+2 Folds, MP1 Calls, MP2 Folds, MP3 Folds, Hero Action is Skipped because of posting the Kill, BTN Action is Skipped because of posting the Kill, BTN Calls, BB Folds, Hero Checks. (4.5 SB)

FLOP: Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG+1 Checks, MP1 Checks, CO Checks, BTN Bets, UTG+1 Calls, MP1 Calls, Hero Calls. (8.5 SB, Reduced to 4BB with Rake)

Turn 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG+1 Checks, MP1 Checks, CO Checks, BTN Bets, UTG+1 Calls, MP1 Raises, Hero 3-Bets
<font color="white"> BTN Folds, UTG+1 Folds, MP1 Calls (12 BB)

River: 4 clubs

MP1 Checks, Hero Bets, MP1 Calls (14 BB)

During the Turn Action: While the raises are going on the players that later critize my play say that there are only 3 hands they would be making it '36' with insinuation that you would need a boat or better. After the hand I did remind them to not talk about the hands in progress.

Final Result: I tell MP1 I have "just a 7", he looks at me in disgust and disbelief, I show my hand and he throws his hand and the muck. My reasoning for the play is at this cardroom I regularly see effective value bets of middle pair get called with ace high, or on a 4 card straight flush board players regularly call with top 2 or even much less. </font>

Jasper

PS The game was played in Longview, Washington, those that have heard of the game will know this in a game where it is very possible to make 3BB/hr. Even more when then put a kill in the game.

[SixForty]

Personally, after all those people checking, I bet my hand first time it's to me on the flop. The rest of the hand would play differently after that.

As you played it, the turn check/3bet was good. No one played the flop like they had a hand that would make a full house on the turn. So 3bet it - charge any spade draws.

[JayKon]

You played the hand great! The ONLY marginal play was calling the flop bet and, getting 8:1 I would do it every time.

As to the comments, frown and ask them to explain what you should have done, they will then tell you exactly how they play and you can use it against them.

Edit: I agree with SierraFox, I would have bet the turn (assuming no tell someone behind me was going to bet)

[Jasper_C]

Thanks for the help, the players that were making comments are well slightly above average players in this game, but just being breakeven or making $6-$7 per hour in this game is just poor. From my own results and the imput of others perfect play in the game should result in about 4BB/hr, and playing well and adjusting to the players is about 3BB/hr. (I'm getting closer to 2BB/hr in this game every day)

What would be the reasoning for betting middle pair here, not saying there isn't one mabey I'm just too much of a donkey to figure it out. Unless middle pair with a good kicker figures to be best often here (which in hindsight I know is not true, as the BTN had a weak Queen could it be that this bit of info is clouding my judgement of weather to value bet middle pair w/ King kicker, and backdoor 2nd nut flush draw.

Only reason for the check-raise here was that the BTN was not going to bet any draw, (except for the top pair plus flush draw, as that to him was already a made hand) and he already had a dozen chips in hand ready to bet. Just wondering if knowing the bet from the button is coming with 90%+ ceartanty do I CR or lead out on the Turn?

Jasper_C

PS This casino allow the players to determine the blinds and most of the players are now requesting a single big blind, what stragetic differences must be made preflop? (I am assuming slightly tighter play, espially upfront, despite the fact that this game is extreamly loose passive.)

[SixForty]

[ QUOTE ]
What would be the reasoning for betting middle pair here, not saying there isn't one mabey I'm just too much of a donkey to figure it out. Unless middle pair with a good kicker figures to be best often here (which in hindsight I know is not true, as the BTN had a weak Queen could it be that this bit of info is clouding my judgement of weather to value bet middle pair w/ King kicker, and backdoor 2nd nut flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

You bet here on the flop because you may very well have the best hand - two players have shown weakness and there's only one player left behind you, with only one overcard to your middle pair. The chances that he hit the queen are relatively small. You have a made hand, but it is very vulnerable, so it should be protected with a bet. You don't want to give a free card to someone hanging around with A8, since they've got 6 outs to beat you, or JT, since a Q or a 9 gives them a half decent draw. Also, if someone is on a flush draw, then they'll gladly pay you to see the turn and river - why let them see it for free!

[ QUOTE ]
Only reason for the check-raise here was that the BTN was not going to bet any draw, (except for the top pair plus flush draw, as that to him was already a made hand) and he already had a dozen chips in hand ready to bet. Just wondering if knowing the bet from the button is coming with 90%+ ceartanty do I CR or lead out on the Turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

IF you know it's coming with 90% certainty, then checkraising is definitely the best play. You can know this by a number of different ways: you pick up a tell of the chips in his hand, like you did, or a different tell; you know that the Button is the type of player who will always continuation bet the turn if no one raises the flop on him. Things like that. And this is the perfect spot to shoot for the checkraise, in my opinion.

[Dagger78]

Are you sure the button will bet again? I really hate seeing him check behind. Otherwise I like it.

But I'm too afraid of getting this checked through and bet the turn. I think the turn 3 bet is the best play given the action. The only hands you should really be concerned with here are 66 and A7. Otherwise you're usually ahead and expect UTG to call 2 cold back to him with his random draw.

[Jasper_C]

Only sure the button will bet because he was putting chips into the pot (beyond the betting line) before I had the opprotunity to check, I quickly checked to allow the check-raise. I didn't even have time to think about what would have been the correct play there, it was a big reason for asking the question.
I see what you mean about betting the flop, I see that betting would have worked probably just as well.

I have a question about what happens if the flop betting changes...
UTG+1 Bets, MP1 Calls... Action to me, I'm getting 6:1 to call, I think I am getting odds to call here espically with implied odds, however with one player to act behind me I am not sure if calling works with the danger of a raise behind me.

What I am trying to figure out here is how to read betting patterns of weak players and what to do with weak made hands that have room to improve on the flop.

Jasper_C

[SixForty]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a question about what happens if the flop betting changes...
UTG+1 Bets, MP1 Calls... Action to me, I'm getting 6:1 to call, I think I am getting odds to call here espically with implied odds, however with one player to act behind me I am not sure if calling works with the danger of a raise behind me.

What I am trying to figure out here is how to read betting patterns of weak players and what to do with weak made hands that have room to improve on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you describe Button as a calling station, then I don't expect him to raise behind here. But if that was the betting action, then you have to look at getting 6:1 with a hand that has 6.5 outs (three Ks, two 7s, and 1.5 for the backdoor flush) This isn't enough to call here, unless we rely on implied odds. But even with that, I think we need to discount some of our outs here (Hitting a K can still lose to KQ, which would be a common hand to play. Hitting the backdoor flush can lose to the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) So I think I'd fold in that situation.

[Jasper_C]

Thanks for that, I really appriciate it. I will return next week with a new hand.

Jasper_C