Adjusting to running bad within a session

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

I know that Schneids and several other people have brought this subject up before, but lately I've come to the belief that how you're running within a session has all sorts of important effects on how your opponents play against you. For some reason, this seems to become more important the higher that you play, and I actually think this is a big part of the reason why games above the 30/60 limit are so high variance.

In contrast to having a loose table image, being stuck within a session is almost certainly bad news. There are certain benefits to having a loose-aggressive image: while people will call you down more liberally and play back at you more before the flop, but you also stand to make a lot with your made hands, and people tend not to try and run you off of hands.

In contrast, the losing table image seems to capture the worst of both worlds. Your opponents will try and make plays against you, particularly in spots like blind battles where you will often have very little. They'll see a lot of showdowns against you, but you don't tend to get the excess action that a loose-aggressive player will. You'll also see people defending their blinds very liberally and floating before the flop, which compounds your problems given your lack of folding equity after the flop.

In any event, are there any adjustments that we can make when we've hit a bad run of cards within a session, apart from merely tightening up? And if we're playing online, how quick should we be to give up on a table that otherwise looks pretty good?

[Paluka]

If you know your opponents are going to play differently against you, and you know approximately what these differences might be, I can't see how this can't be turned into an advantage.

[skp]

When I run bad, not only do others play me better, I myself play worse. Or so it seems. Confidence is obviously important in something like golf. But it's also important in poker. Like most people, I lose confidence when I am getting my ass handed to me.

There may be adjustments one can make (as Paluka suggests) but IMO, that's easier said than done.

Best advice: Pack it in for the day; there will always be a game tomorrow. I know that you were looking for something far more insightful but I think quitting is by far the best adjustment you can make.

[The Funky Llama]

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think quitting is by far the best adjustment you can make.

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[Nate tha\\\' Great]

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If you know your opponents are going to play differently against you, and you know approximately what these differences might be, I can't see how this can't be turned into an advantage.

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Paluka,

Of course. But I think there are certain table images that fundamentally encourage your opponents to play better against you, and the sort of loose-weak image that can emerge when you're stuck a fair amount is foremost among them. If your opponents adjust by: taking better advantage of position with more liberal preflop play, putting you to the test more frequently on boards on which you might have nothing, tending to see a lot of showdowns with decent hands, but managing the pot size well when they have possible second best hands -- it is hard for me to see what the proper adjustments to that are, since that's basically good high stakes limit hold 'em in a nutshell.

Another problem is that your opponents can behave in ways that are sort of conspiratorial against you. For example, someone who starts floating a lot before the flop is probably costing himself money. But, that money may not be going to you. Instead, it goes to the blinds, who have more attractive odds to see a flop and can play more of a "cards speak" game after it, which tends to mitiage your positional advantage.

Note that I am NOT talking about a steaming table image. That is relatively easy to adjust to. I am talking about the image you can get where you have a big red L stamped on your forehead.

[bernie]

I think this applies more to live than online. Multitablers aren't really watching how well you're running. Why?->

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You'll also see people defending their blinds very liberally and floating before the flop, which compounds your problems given your lack of folding equity after the flop.


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On UB, I was one of the tightest guys on the table. They still played as you described above regardless of how I was running. In fact, it didn't seem to matter who it was against, this is how most seemed to play. On a site with more tables available, where someone could play 4+, I don't see these guys really paying any more attention other than to stats.


Live(some online): One thing is to not show that it bothers you. Or that you have now tightened up/adjusted because of how you're running. Which you shouldn't really do. You simply don't show that you are willing to lay down any easier or anything like that. Just play normal, with some minor adjustments to them if they're adjusting, and shove it down their throat.

b

[goofball]

When I get back and poker is just a hobby again I'm goign to conduct an extreme "luck" selecgtion experiment. Mostly I'm just going to stop playing in a live game the second I feel that image being projected, and you can feel it.

Historically I've done a couple of things. Take a longiish walk, 20 or so minutes. When you get back opponents will have started to forget, and you'll get a chance to clear your head. On the walk I just think about each opponent and how I think they're exploitable so those ideas are clear in my head when I return. Then I tighten up.

[AffleckKGB]

This post makes no logical sense, but in Nate's defense, a lot of poker players feel this way. What you're implying is if I don't like you, I can tell a table you are joining that you are a loser for the day and conversely, if I like you, I should tell the table you have been a big winner for the day and this will somehow significantly affect your winrate?!

For online play, this view is even more silly. Does running bad in a session refer to 1 table or all 4 you are playing. What is a session anyway? Does the 10 minute break you took to make dinner break up your session sufficiently or do you have to leave the table for an hour before you can play winning poker again?

Do you play differently vs a good player who is "running bad", but is not tilting in the slightest? I'm sure that 25% of the time you think someone is running bad, theyre winning for the day.

This feels like discussions I have with non-poker players.

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

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This post makes no logical sense, but in Nate's defense, a lot of poker players feel this way. What you're implying is if I don't like you, I can tell a table you are joining that you are a loser for the day and conversely, if I like you, I should tell the table you have been a big winner for the day and this will somehow significantly affect your winrate?!

For online play, this view is even more silly. Does running bad in a session refer to 1 table or all 4 you are playing. What is a session anyway? Does the 10 minute break you took to make dinner break up your session sufficiently or do you have to leave the table for an hour before you can play winning poker again?

Do you play differently vs a good player who is "running bad", but is not tilting in the slightest? I'm sure that 25% of the time you think someone is running bad, theyre winning for the day.

This feels like discussions I have with non-poker players.

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You're missing the point. If you're stuck, there's a reason for it. Maybe you're making a lot of second-best hands. Maybe you're flop-dead. Maybe you're folding a lot. Maybe you're bluffing too much. It's these things that are noticed, not the running bad itself. What's more, the money that you're losing is circulating to other players at the table, who may be playing more confidently as a result.

[sweetjazz]

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You're missing the point. If you're stuck, there's a reason for it. Maybe you're making a lot of second-best hands. Maybe you're flop-dead. Maybe you're folding a lot. Maybe you're bluffing too much. It's these things that are noticed, not the running bad itself. What's more, the money that you're losing is circulating to other players at the table, who may be playing more confidently as a result.

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Nate, I think you are right about this, but the logical counterplay in most of these spots is to simply tighten up a smidge (because your fold equity when you miss is lower, whereas your chance to get more bets in as a favorite with your solid hands goes up a bit) and play relatively solid ABC poker. The way online games play these days, this is still a pretty profitable way to go. Maybe you lose a few fractions of a BB/100 because you cannot make plays that would be profitable if your image were better, but it's a constant that online players play too many hands and go too far with their weak ones on a frequent basis. Waiting for good cards and taking advantage of this is the basic start to winning at this game. Sure there is some more flexibility and creativity which can sometimes allow you to steal a pot when you have a good image, but these plays really don't make up a large part of an expert's arsenal.

At a good table, by definition, there are either several players playing poorly or one player playing very poorly. Solid tight play can exploit this for a nice rate, and if your image or their confidence is such that this is the most +EV approach, then so be it. It may not be sexy, but it gets the job done.

I actually think that at a good table, running bad (though undesirable in and of itself) can sometimes lead one's EV to rise slightly, as loose players loosen up even more (generally speaking), tend to go even further with weak hands because they feel a bit more invincible (sp?), and generally play worse than if they are running average. They also can tilt easily if results swing violently against them and they lose a few big pots in a row.

So a table where you are running bad and others are running good is not ideal, but it's really not that bad. The key is maintaining your good judgment and adjusting your standards for value raising and calling down appropriately without having them distorted by the natural frustration one feels during a bad run.