Explain this to me

[bweiser8311962]

Why bet the river and fold to a check raise? If you are willing to put in one bet, why not just check call? At least that way, you find out for sure if you are beaten.

[Str8Fish]

you need to show us a hand example. This is really situation-dependent.

[bweiser8311962]

it seems to be a general philosophy on this board. i'll bet, but i'll fold to a check raise and i won't check call.

I believe you are referring to a line that is taken when you are WA/WB (either way ahead or way behind). The line essentially is intended to maximize your winnings when you are ahead and minimize your losses when you are behind. An example would be this:

A fairly tight player raises in EP. You call in the BB with ATs. The flop comes A74. At this point, you are either way ahead (i.e., Villain has JJ-KK) or way behind (i.e., Villain has AQ, AK, or AA). Here is the line that most people on the board would suggest taking.

check/call flop
check/call turn
bet/fold river

The reason for the bet/fold on the river is so that you do not miss a value bet when you are ahead. Villain will likely only raise with a hand that has you beat, so you can usually safely fold this river, though I admit it takes some discipline to do. You will find that a check/call line on this river will allow Villain to check behind with those hands you are beating and see a free showdown. The other good thing about this line, is that you will rarely get raised even when you are losing (often AK or AQ will simply call here fearing you hit a weird two pair or a set), so you can be confident that when Villain raises, you are beaten.

Note: It is not suggested that you take the check/fold line on the river against a very crafty opponent who you know is capable of raising the river on a bluff.

[Pov]

[ QUOTE ]
Why bet the river and fold to a check raise? If you are willing to put in one bet, why not just check call? At least that way, you find out for sure if you are beaten.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean bet and fold to a raise rather than check-call? Your opponent can't check-raise unless you're last to act and you can't check-call unless you're first to act.

When you're first, the reason to bet and fold to a raise (when you would have called one bet) is to deny your opponent the ability to bet his good hands and check behind with his weaker hands. He won't be able to raise with his good hands unless they're very good (which is why you can fold) so you'll still lose one bet just like you would have if you had check-called. But on his weaker hands you win a bet when he would have checked behind.

When you're last, well - clearly you'd bet a lot of hands after your opponent checks and you won't see many check-raise bluffs so both the value bet and the fold to the check-raise can easily be correct.

edit: wow - I type too slowly tonight - what Kramer said

[bweiser8311962]

your rational seems sound, but again i question the effectiveness of this strategy. at some point, people will get a read on you that you will fold the river to a raise. so it will make it easier to bluff you.

i guess this is a real leak in my game, from both sides: missing a value bet and calling the checkraise when i am beat because i just don't see the sense in folding for 1 more bet to MAKE SURE i am beat.

[Pov]

[ QUOTE ]
your rational seems sound, but again i question the effectiveness of this strategy. at some point, people will get a read on you that you will fold the river to a raise. so it will make it easier to bluff you.

i guess this is a real leak in my game, from both sides: missing a value bet and calling the checkraise when i am beat because i just don't see the sense in folding for 1 more bet to MAKE SURE i am beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I wouldn't exactly call it *my* strategy, but I certainly use it and I have no doubt it has been profitable for me - and it should be for you too if you apply it correctly. Anyway, I think you're taking it a little too literally. The strategy isn't bet and fold every single time to a raise - it's a general strategy for a certain type of situation. Also I think you're forgetting the times you'll bet and then re-raise the raiser because you've made a strong hand and you were trapping or you hit two pair or some other draw on the river.

In any event, the size of the pot should be your main guide. If it is very large and you have any realistic chance of winning you should probably call against all but the most predictable of opponents, but in a smaller pot you should be more inclined to drop your hand.

Finally, there is a significant difference between a raise on the river and a check-raise. I can count the number of times I've seen a check-raise river bluff without taking off my shoes. I can't be totally sure it just didn't get caught I suppose, but considering the check-raise gets called nearly every time I think it's a fairly safe assumption this play is very rare.

If I haven't convinced you, keep asking questions - that's what the forum is for and maybe someone will give you a better answer.

[donkeyradish]

You bet if the pot is big & there is enough of a chance they will fold a better hand than yours.