When to lead in to a PF raiser?

[dasani123]

I think it's because it's very confusing for the preflop raiser when someone else leads into him. They will suspect that if you actually do have a good hand you would check to him and try to trap him because he is very likely to bet since he is the aggressor. As long as you bluff or semibluff sometimes in similar situations, it will be very hard for the preflop raiser to react to your set. Obviously, it would be better to make a play like this in situations when you feel the preflop raiser has a good chance of hitting his hand than the times you feel he is more apt to cbet. Additionally, stack sizes come into play when considering this play. If stack sizes are such that you can get it all in on the flop with a check-raise rather than a bet-3bet, then checking to the raiser would be a better play.

[bhudson]

The idea is to get all in by the river. You need to do whatever will accomplish this.

Basically if you think your opponent hit the flop, or the opponent is an aggressive bluffer who will raise with air or with draws, or a fish who will call with any draw or any pair all day, leading out is the best.

A secondary reason is that it hides your hand since most people slowplay sets.

[cbloom]

Lead into the PFR with your best hands and your worst hands. Check your medium hands.

[Ratamahatta]

[ QUOTE ]
Lead into the PFR with your best hands and your worst hands. Check your medium hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhhh... I like it!

[El Ninho]

Yeah. But not ALWAYS, right? An opponent who only check his medium hands and lead the rest is quite exploitable.

[matv]

leading into the PFRer is such a strong play cause if they put in a decent raise there pretty much commited. also u make more think about it this way.

if u check-raise u get a bet out of him which might be pot size. if u bet into him and he raises a PSB u make bout 4 times the amount u would if u CR and he folded. u let ppl off really easily uf u check-raise.

the idea is to commit ur opponents stack if he raises u have usually accomplished this.

[El Ninho]

[ QUOTE ]
leading into the PFRer is such a strong play cause if they put in a decent raise there pretty much commited. also u make more think about it this way.

if u check-raise u get a bet out of him which might be pot size. if u bet into him and he raises a PSB u make bout 4 times the amount u would if u CR and he folded. u let ppl off really easily uf u check-raise.

the idea is to commit ur opponents stack if he raises u have usually accomplished this.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right, leading into the PFRer is very often the best play. The c/r still has it place given the right opportunity, especially because if he responds to your c/r you are stacking him. But saying you are always stacking your opponent with a b3b is simply not true. It all depends on the stacksizes. With really small stack sizes the c/r might be best and with really large stacks perhaps b3b is better. But assuming a "standard" 100bb stack, b3b is no way near to assure your opponent is commited. Also here it depends heavily on betsize factors. But let's say your opp raises 4bb and you call. You lead the flop (8bb) with a potsize bet (pot now 16bb). Now you of course have to factor in his re-raise. If he raises to 24 he is no way near commited, and even if he raises to 36 or a little more he is not potstuck imo. Of course the typical fish might ignore his odds and just see the big pot, being emotionally attached to AA or whatever it is and call anyway. It's hard to get away from strong overpairs, all Im saying is that if your opponent decides you have a set he can't call because even if the pot is big he still has to much money behind.

[JackAll]

Okay, so if we are b/3b big draws and sets, what else is there that we are c/r'ing with??

Would we do this with TP to test if the c-bet is just that - a continuation, and not a value bet? For example, lets say we are deep, and so defending blinds with JQs/TQs and flop is 25Q. If they bet pf, would it be better to show aggression and c/r the flop since our hand will often stand up to pressure if they don't fold and and we can c/c down with a decent hand also rather than be passive OOP and just c/c?

Also should we be c/r'ing with air sometimes like JQ with both cards as over cards on a flop since we still could hit TP on later streets if called that are well disguised?

And how about as a complete bluff - eg 45s or 55 on a scary 27Jr board?

How about a situation where we might have a possible backdoor flush and straight - eg 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]k[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] board?

Any other sitations to c/r?

JA

[JackWilson]

[ QUOTE ]
Just wondering about some situations where it's good to lead into a pf raiser?
What kind of hand/pf raiser/flop combo?

On a similar note, what kind of hand/pf raiser/flop combo is good for c/r-ing a flop?

Cheers,
JA

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good hands:

A very important factor to take into account is stack sizes. Against a small or medium-to-small stack, a checkraise is gonna be your higher percentage play. The PFR will almost definitely bet and after your checkraise his stack will be so small he'd be compelled to call.

When stacks are deep, you're better off leading into the PFR. What often happens is he feels that he has to make a very big raise and then can't get away from the hand when he gets 3bet.

[JackAll]

Ahh .. awesome point about stack sizes and c/r'ing Jack.