so I am moving up stat check (semi long)

[keikiwai]

[ QUOTE ]
my raise first in does increase until the button, which i am paranoid about raising on the button because people will think i am stealing and play back at me (got burned on a massive final table in a tourney stealing on button few years back).

generally how much should it be increasing by?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure by how much, try Pokey's PT guide in the FAQ maybe it's in there.

I would expect it to be the exact reverse of what yours is.

By definition, you are trying to steal the blinds if you raise OTB. If they play back at you, you will have the advantage of position. Also, they will usually not play back at you, as they will usually not have a hand. Switch tables if your pf raises constantly get re-raised. It'll happen sometimes, but should be only rarely.

[keikiwai]

[ QUOTE ]
(got burned on a massive final table in a tourney stealing on button few years back).


[/ QUOTE ]

PS: You will get burned in poker every couple of years... errr, I mean hands.

[notevenhere]

[ QUOTE ]
The later position you are, the more often you should open raise. So you should open raise most often from the button and least often from UTG.

Your raise first in show the opposite trend.

This is certainly a big leak and probably explains your very low steal percent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just wanted to point out that the "Raise First In %" stat can be a bit misleading. You should actually expect your Raise First In % to trend lower as you approach the button, because you are much less likely to be the first in. So in theory, you are not getting "credit" for many of your raises in which a person in front limps.

Your PF% percentage should definately be higher as you approach the button though.

[yad]

Stats like this don't usually say all that much. But I can already tell that you are too passive and too predictable. You particularly need to start using your button.

[keikiwai]

[ QUOTE ]
You particularly need to start using your button.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to lounge around in my buttons:

[keikiwai]

[ QUOTE ]
You should actually expect your Raise First In % to trend lower as you approach the button, because you are much less likely to be the first in. So in theory, you are not getting "credit" for many of your raises in which a person in front limps.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you misunderstood what open raising means.

You are not raising FIRST IN if someone in fron of you limps. My point was that the later your position the more often you should open raise. The phrase, "open raise" means raising when no one has entered the pot in front of you.

PT describes it as:

Percentage of times player raised when they were first to enter the pot from this position.

[notevenhere]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You should actually expect your Raise First In % to trend lower as you approach the button, because you are much less likely to be the first in. So in theory, you are not getting "credit" for many of your raises in which a person in front limps.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you misunderstood what open raising means.

You are not raising FIRST IN if someone in fron of you limps. My point was that the later your position the more often you should open raise. The phrase, "open raise" means raising when no one has entered the pot in front of you.

PT describes it as:

Percentage of times player raised when they were first to enter the pot from this position.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I haven't misunderstood what open raising means.

The better your position, the more you should raise, no doubt about that. My point is, the limpers in front of you impact the "Raise First In %" significantly, in a way that may not be obvious at first glance.

Say you are a player who would not raise K10 from UTG, but would raise it from the CO with 1/2/no limpers in front.

Think about how this scenario impacts the "Raise First In %".


Also think about when you pick up AA. Let's assume we raise AA 100% of the time. When we pick up AA under the gun, we are increasing our "Raise First In %" every single time. So we are 1/1 here.

Compare this to when you pick up AA in the CO. We once again are raising it every time. However, if someone limps or raises in front of us, this raise is not categorized among the "Raise First In %". So we are 1/1 here if no one comes into the pot first, and 0/0 if someone does.

Once again, think about how this scenario can affect the statistic.

[keikiwai]

[ QUOTE ]

Say you are a player who would not raise K10 from UTG, but would raise it from the CO with 1/2/no limpers in front.

Think about how this scenario impacts the "Raise First In %".

[/ QUOTE ]


I completely do not understand your point about limpers.

Could you clarify it?

Your example is good, in that you would open-raise KTo from late position but not early position. Since there are many hands like this, you raise first in % should slowly increase as you move from UTG to OTB.

We are ignoring all hands with limpers in front of you. That is a separate discussion, so limpers do not affect your raise first in %.

[notevenhere]

Ok, perhaps I am not explaining myself too well.

Imagine for a moment, that you were a player who did not take position into account at all when playing. How would you expect the "Raise First In %" to trend based on position?

You might think it would trend in a flat line in the extreme long run, but this is not the case. It will trend slowly downwards from UTG to the button.

This is simply because the farther you get from UTG, the less likely you are to be the first in. So when you are UTG, 100% of your raises increase your "Raise First In %". Whereas when you are on the button, many of your raises do not count. It is not that you are 0/1. It is that you are 0/0.

When in early position, your "hands that i will raise regardless of position" raises count 1/1 under "Raise First In %" very often. In late position, these raises count 0/0 oftentimes. You have to be EXTREMELY aggresive in LP in order to counteract this natural trend.

The OP's PT stats illustrate this very well. Notice how his "PF raise %" goes up as he approaches the button, but yet his "Raise First In %" goes down.

[ QUOTE ]
We are ignoring all hands with limpers in front of you. That is a separate discussion, so limpers do not affect your raise first in %.

[/ QUOTE ]

You cannot ignore this factor. This is why it is a subtle thing to understand. The AA example from my previous post explains why this cannot be ignored.

[LtDan]

I think you're misunderstanding the "Raise First in %" statistic - assuming I'm reading the PT description correctly - it is not "Percentage of the time that I both raised and I happened to be first in" (in which case it would decrease as you described), it's "Of the times I was first in, I raised".

For example, say we take 100 times you are on the button:

90 times there are limpers infront of you and you raise 16 of these.
The remaining 10 times there are no limpers, and you raise 4 of them.

Your PFR would be 20% (you raised 20/100 hands), but your "Raise First in %" would be 40% because of the times you were first in you raised 4 times out of 10 times.