Hellmuth Crushing at the WSOP

[eclinchy]

Of course, this is all relative. A "donk" at the WSOP could still do fine at tons of smaller online and live games all over the world.

But still, you look at some of the plays that both Moneymaker and Varkonyi made, and you do have to wonder how they managed to win millions. Now, it's possible that both men are better players now than they were three or four years ago, but back then, they both had a lot of learning to do. In Moneymaker's case, I think the call he made against Brenes is a good example.

[jdblacknines]

Moneymaker will cash in the shootout Limit he is in now and that will be his first cash in a couple YEARS.

[mlagoo]

more like smellmuth

[WSOPChump]

he did not call against Brenes.
i beleive he checkraised all in on a king high flop.
he stated Brenes was betting alot of flops so he made a play and Brenes happened to have pocket aces.
moneymaker has played few events at the WSOP in the last couple years.
although i beleive he stated that he was playing alot of events this yr. so he probably has not had a good world series. but i dont think he's aweful.

[boo5000]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Reading it clearly PF, JJ was re-raised. Unless villain has loose image on the table, the raised indicated AA,KK,AK;
2. Since Phil act first, the call of villain's all-in may indicate Phil put villian on AK but want to get lucky catching J on later street? Pot-odd still doesn't justify?
3. What if Villian acted first on the flop and pushed all-in? Phil still would call?

[ QUOTE ]


another level in his game? please! he is a 9 time WSOP bracelet winner. The only problem Phil has is that he makes more money from all his other deals going on rather than poker. He hasn't "played poker for a living" for sometime now which has seen him play fewer and fewer tournaments. You could say his pokerbrat persona and the money it has made him has hurt his game a bit. He nolonger fully concentrates on winning poker tournaments.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, when you don't play poker for a living and only think winning will get you extra money for fun, you would play differently.

Remember Chris Moneymakers' 88 all-in on the K9x flop and turned 8 cracked the AA? You can't explain everyhand technically, it has gamble/lucky factors. I think this year's ME winner will have many bad moves at the right time.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Phil had any feeling at all that he was bluffing, or being overagressive with a weaker hand, then he will check that flop. If he wants to get it all in anyway, might as well let the other guy hang himself instead of folding to a decent contiuation bet.

Phil probably picked up on something during the reraise.

[eclinchy]

I think Moneymaker checkraised, and then called when he got reraised all-in. But I admit, my memory of the hand from three years ago isn't perfect. Either way, I think his reads are fairly mediocre. Again, I never said he was completely awful, but compared to the world-class pros, he's a _bit_ of a donk.

[Aceshigh7]

[ QUOTE ]
the big named pros have always played the main event.

he means the 1K to 5K events in the past.

[/ QUOTE ]

There weren't that many 1K WSOP events during the period we're talking about. They are much more plentiful these days.

[thedarknight]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah A4 and 66 was some terrible cold deck hands. poor phil.

The KQ hand was a cold deck and the 66 was not an unreasonable move. Granted Phil shouldnt have been in the pot with the A4 but he was tilting and it was very hard for him to put Negreanu on what he had. We've seen worse from other players who don't get anything like the grief Phil gets.

[/ QUOTE ]

So just because you're tilting means it's ok? Steam control is probably the most single key factor into being a great player. You can't simply put an excuse.."Oh he's a great player, he only lost because he was just tilting." Those hands were poorly played....he was calling so many marginal hands preflop..and then CHECING them...I understand the notion that you can call with any 2 and try to outplay, but he wasn't doing that. He was going with this check/call, check in the dark style trapping with terrible hands.

Are you also saying Phil gets more unlucky than any other players? Perhaps his beats are more impressionable by his tantrums...vs. say Phil Ivey's beats who gets up and leaves the table.

[ QUOTE ]
in regards to his 9 bracelets when the the pros outnumbered the amateurs, those were the days when mainstay pros like doyle, barry, chip, etc. didn't give a damn about the bracelets.

Chip Reese cashed in hellmuth's 1989 main event. http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/even...a=r&n=8011 as did todd brunson himself in an event hellmuth won in 1997
http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/even...a=r&n=7811

Phil has consistenly won and cashed in events with top players in them. What about the 2nd in this years $5,000 NLH event? That contained just about every top pro around today.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like someone had already stated...all the big name pros play the main event..and I was talking about the SMALLER ONES..the days when poker was dying and the fields were small. I have no idea if this was easier or not..it's just a conjecture.

[Whitewash]

Even more significant than many of the top players not playing preliminary events, overall there are just so many more people playing NL Hold Em nowadays, and as a result a LOT more really good NLHE players.

10 years ago, pretty much everyone never ever played NL Hold Em outside of a couple tournaments at the World Series.

There is a lot more parity among the best 20% or so players in the field of a $2,500 (and higher) NLHE WSOP event than a decade ago.

[cookieb]

[ QUOTE ]
Moneymaker will cash in the shootout Limit he is in now and that will be his first cash in a couple YEARS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly how much does he play? Just curious, it seems he rarely plays.