Tiger, Michael or Lance?

[Jackie Onassis]

Maybe he was referring to when Jordan played, in which case, he may have been right, but I do not know the numbers.

[Dids]

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I just really dislike the argument that says "Lance must have been using drugs because he won and everybody knows you can't win without drugs".

There still hasn't been proof, and treating this argument like it's the Lance supporters who need to prove he wasn't is silly.

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there isn't definitive proof...but...

so many people have said he did, there is circumstantial evidence that he did it...all of the top guys are guilty of it...that if I had a gun to my head and had to make a call one way or the other, I would have to say he doped.

it's pretty similar to the Bonds situation

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I had the same objections to the Bonds thing. One of the bigger frustrations for me about that was that people all assumed he was doping for really silly reasons, and now they get to pretend like they were justified in their thought process.

[Victor]

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Armstrong admitted to using performance-enhancing drugs when he was recovering from cancer

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nice find. ppl recovering from cancer dont use steriods. lance cheated in his recovery and is a fraudulent cancer survivor.

[Victor]

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You don't go from being a promising but unaccomplished rider like Lance was in 95 to being the best at a sport ever, let alone one that is famous for drug use, without using drugs.

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i like this quote.

[bills217]

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nice find. ppl recovering from cancer dont use steriods. lance cheated in his recovery and is a fraudulent cancer survivor.

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While I'm not sure exactly what you meant here, the implication was that the ADMISSION of steroid use came while he was recovering from cancer, and the actual use was before, while he was cycling (pure speculation on my part but to me the cancer is a bit of circumstantial evidence as well). Perhaps I should have been more clear about that.

There's a lot more persuasive and specific accusations than that (for example, an eyewitness account of the different types of drugs in Armstrong's medicine cabinet at his house, eyewitness accounts of him shooting up, requesting masking agents, etc.), but that testimony came under oath in a US court, confirmed by two different people, which would add a little more credibility to it, one would think.

[Sykes]

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Why wasn't Gretzky in the original poll? He dominated hockey to an extent even greater than Jordan dominated basketball.

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Good point!!

Can we put Babe Ruth in this discussion also? I mean, he might not be the best, but he's has the most iconic status.

[bills217]

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There's no athlete in the world that's been tested for drugs more than Lance Armstrong, and there's never been a valid positive test.

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Come on now. These tests are a joke. They are consistently beaten time and time again. Not that I blame the testers, because it's like catching computer viruses...people are always coming up with something new. It's not like there are certain riders who just fail them all the time; EVERYONE passes them 99% of the time, and it's widely accepted that there are a lot of users.

[Zurvan]

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There's no athlete in the world that's been tested for drugs more than Lance Armstrong, and there's never been a valid positive test.

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Come on now. These tests are a joke. They are consistently beaten time and time again. Not that I blame the testers, because it's like catching computer viruses...people are always coming up with something new. It's not like there are certain riders who just fail them all the time; EVERYONE passes them 99% of the time, and it's widely accepted that there are a lot of users.

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You just said that the 2nd, 3rd & 4th place finishers in last year's tour just tested positive.

I suspect you want all those people to be on drugs. It's a good excuse for you not being a successful athlete. It's not just you, it's a lot of people.

You're trying to tell me that the most tested athlete in the world managed to avoid a positive drug test, but all the others didn't? He's just that lucky, is he? I find that attitude to be even more naive than the one that believes that it's possible for one athlete, given a perfect situation (which Armstrong was) to completely dominate a sport to that level.

[bills217]

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You're trying to tell me that the most tested athlete in the world managed to avoid a positive drug test, but all the others didn't?

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No I think there's plenty that beat the drug tests. They're laughably easy to beat. And there was the one dubious positive...and I think believing he was set-up by some French reporter as part of a mass conspiracy to bring him down is a much bigger stretch than believing he used and beat all the other tests, as many cyclists have, and as many athletes have, in many sports. Athletes wouldn't use if the tests were reliable, just like you and I wouldn't speed if there were cops with radar guns every quarter of a mile prepared to write us a ticket for going 71 in a 70. It would be suicide.

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He's just that lucky, is he?

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It's got nothing to do with luck. The tests are easily beatable.

How many times did the guys who tested positive beat the tests before testing positive? If the tests worked at anywhere near a reliable rate, using would be suicide...but that clearly isn't the case.

How many times did Ricky Williams beat the NFL drug tests before he came out and said he was tired of drinking the masking agent? LOL. Or look at the Whizzinator incident with Onterrio Smith...people are constantly coming up with new ways to beat these tests faster than they can be tested for. I'm not saying everyone is on steroids, hell I can't even judge them if they are, especially when/where they aren't illegal, but to look over the mountain of allegations and circumstantial evidence against someone like Armstrong, Bonds, etc. IS naive, and you have to acknowledge that when you start comparing him to Tiger, MJ, Gretzky, etc.

FWIW, you could make the same "But he never tested positive!" defense of Bonds, Giambi, etc.

[Buckmulligan]

Keep in mind that Lance was only competitive on one course. Tiger owns a ton of them.