Standard steal line?

[Aaron W.]

Villain has been at the table for an orbit, and the early indication is that he's a little tight. Of course, 10 hands isn't much to go on.

I checked behind on the turn because I don't know if I can make him fold with one more bet, and I don't want to bet twice more at this pot. This is a drawless board, so he usually has a pocket pair or paired the board (calling down) or two big cards (often seeing the river and folding to a river bet -- but I'm not betting the river). I would have folded except that I paired up and he has a good bluffing situation (big cards) and value betting situation (pocket pairs hoping to get called by A-high).

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (3.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 5.25 BB

[bozlax]

From the Big Book of Standard Micro Plays:

"When stealing with any two, follow up your pfr with bets on the flop AND turn, as many Villans will call a flop bet UI, but give up on the turn, and most will play back when they hit something, allowing you to fold."

Even at 2/4 I think this applies, against otherwise-unknown Vills. Bet the turn, fold to a raise, plan to take a free showdown.

[Fantam]

There are not many pocket pairs that you beat, but I can see your turn check inducing a river bet from your opponent if he has say high overcards or Ax.

The possible flush may also have encouraged your opponent to try a bluff on the river.

So, calling his river bet seems reasonable to me.

[Preytar]

I play this the same way. I expect a pair of fives or a total wiff with a big card (offsuit A or K). You induced the bluff with the turn check and made a hand on the river.

For those who will inevitably say the pot is small...fold to the river bet, what hand do you put the BB on?

Brian

[Preytar]

Boz,

I'll pay upwards of $312.67 for that book (plus tax and shipping).

No BS. Nice post.

Brian

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
From the Big Book of Standard Micro Plays:

"When stealing with any two, follow up your pfr with bets on the flop AND turn, as many Villans will call a flop bet UI, but give up on the turn, and most will play back when they hit something, allowing you to fold."

Even at 2/4 I think this applies, against otherwise-unknown Vills. Bet the turn, fold to a raise, plan to take a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is retarded. might as well just say - don't steal without a showdown hand unless against a known villain.

on really ragged boards often the defender says: there's no way that board hit him, and calls. i think, though i can't prove, that this happens vs unknowns as often as them giving up on the turn.

i don't have a problem with a turn check at all. i also don't have a problem with a turn bet. but usually i like to have some kind of showdown power.

[Preytar]

Tilt,

First: I'm not stalking you.

Second: I see your thought process. As the BB would you c/r the turn hoping for a free showdown? What hands would you need to make that play? Would you c/r/f if you are played back at on the turn? This is a huge leak for me, so any help is appreciated.

Brian

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
Tilt,

First: I'm not stalking you.

Second: I see your thought process. As the BB would you c/r the turn hoping for a free showdown? What hands would you need to make that play? Would you c/r/f if you are played back at on the turn? This is a huge leak for me, so any help is appreciated.

Brian

[/ QUOTE ]

its hard to get a free anything when we're oop.
and the situation is a little too vague to comment on without a read, or board texture, or hand.

headsup and blind play is very situational for me, so its hard for me to comment...and also, with a lot of situations my plan is sometimes i do this, sometimes i do that.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
might as well just say - don't steal without a showdown hand unless against a known villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not what I said at all. What I said was that the standard micros advice when stealing light is to fire again on the turn UI as Villans will frequently call one on the flop in hopes of catching on the turn, and then give up on the turn if they don't.

[ QUOTE ]
on really ragged boards often the defender says: there's no way that board hit him, and calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what I said is retarded? This, or the Villan says, "Hmmm, he must have a pocket pair, or a better ace-high than mine," and folds. The problem is, you don't know, so you make a standard play.

And, not for nothing, if you have showdown power aren't you MORE inclined to try and induce a bluff? Whereas in this case, you're the one bluffing (since you don't know on the turn that you're going to river a pair?).

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
might as well just say - don't steal without a showdown hand unless against a known villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not what I said at all. What I said was that the standard micros advice when stealing light is to fire again on the turn UI as Villans will frequently call one on the flop in hopes of catching on the turn, and then give up on the turn if they don't.

[ QUOTE ]
on really ragged boards often the defender says: there's no way that board hit him, and calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what I said is retarded? This, or the Villan says, "Hmmm, he must have a pocket pair, or a better ace-high than mine," and folds. The problem is, you don't know, so you make a standard play.

And, not for nothing, if you have showdown power aren't you MORE inclined to try and induce a bluff? Whereas in this case, you're the one bluffing (since you don't know on the turn that you're going to river a pair?).

[/ QUOTE ]

hmm. well first of all i'm pretty cranky today.
second, i don't think there is a standard play for "stealing light". but whatever. it's all good.
i don't think there's a need to fire again on the turn with total air. but sometimes i do, exactly for the reasons you mentioned.
in summary, i'm cranky. i'm going to get more coffee now.