Short stacked nearing bubble

[ZootMurph]

Live casino tournament, 83 starters, 15 left, 9 paid. 500 ante, 1500/3000 blinds. I'm in the BB. My table has 8 players, 3 short stacks including myself. Other table has 7 players, none as shortstacked as us. After posting BB and ante, I have 8500.

Folded to short stack in middle position, who goes all in for his last 4k. Button, who has the exact amount of chips I have, CALLS, leaving himself 7500 chips. SB, who is the number 2 stack at the table, surprisingly folds. I have A4o in the big blind.

About the players - Middle position short stack has played every hand since we went to 2 tables, which is 5 hands for me at this table before this one. The only reason he is still here is sheer luck. Button was shortstacked, but called leaving himself 200 in chips before the previous break and was checked down and he won on the river. I don't really think he has much of a clue about shortstack play. I have yet to play a hand at this table, and no other hands with either player involved at previous tables.

I don't want to just drop 1k more into this pot being shortstacked. My big problem is the button's call with a short stack. I don't know what to make of it, and I don't know whether he'll call if I push. If I push, I really don't want a call, even if I'm slightly ahead. He seems passive and doesn't seem bright enough to slow play a big hand in that situation.

So tell me, should I push here or just throw another 1k chip into the pot?

[zoobird]

I think a push is bad, because they're both likely to be ahead of you. The guy who pushed is so short that he's got no fold equity at all - he probably has a hand that he thinks isn't bad. The caller also probably thinks his hand is ok (although maybe not great, since he didn't raise).

However, getting over 12:1 odds against two opponents I think you need to call. If you're lucky, you'll flop a set or two pair or the other caller will be willing to check the hand down (cooperation play) and you'll get to see a cheap showdown.

[ZootMurph]

The call is unmistakeably obvious. The thing is to try to push button off his hand. When I should do that is really the meat of the question.

The results, as suspected, are awful. I had A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Inital 4k allin had 83[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and button had Q4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I pushed preflop hoping to get button off the hand. Unfortunately, some moron at the table advised button that he had to call, just when I'm SURE he was going to fold. (On a side note, I made damn sure he got a ten minute penalty for opening his big bleeping mouth). Anyway, the flop is 23J with no hearts, and I'm even more sure if I just called preflop and pushed the flop I would have folded out the button. Turn is, of course, the Q and river is the 4 which would have given me a pair of 4s vs the small stack's pair of 3s. Instead, button knocks out 2 players with a hand he should not even have been in the pot with.

The point I'm really working with is that we too often focus on pushing in these situations preflop, when there are many instances and preflop call and flop push will get better results. If you are planning on getting all your chips in the middle, if you push the flop and the other guy hits... well, he was going to hit anyway, right? But if he doesn't, you've greatly increased your FE. Because your opponent won't hit the flop the majority of the time, I think the preflop call and flop push is, in the majority of cases, the better play.

[mornelth]

If you read on button is right - you execute a non-obvious stop-and-go. Flat call, and then look reservedly hapy about the flop (any flop) and push all-in. If button folds - you get a chance to knock out a player and win a good-sized pot very cheaply. That's my plan here.

My other plan is to not to get so shortstacked.