Ive been thinking alot about position...

[flubsy]

I dont think there is enough theory written about it, and that it is probably one of the most underrated components in poker. So I put together some thoughts on the subject. I really think they are quite simple ideas, but whenever I show them to someone, they just go, "huh?"

Maybe Im not stating it all correctly, or maybe I'm way off, but I was hoping to find someone in 2+2 that had perhaps, thought about this along the same lines, or even well beyong my few thoughts and observations.

If this makes sense to you, or you can see flawed logic somewhere, please post your comments. Thank you.
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Positional Value in Texas Hold'em.

*All components and relevant factors which go into a hand of poker carry an inherent 'value'.

*Position is a component and relative factor.
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For calrification, here are a few definitions for terms Im using that are unique to my observations:

Position value: the inherent value of a position prior to any action taking place.

Effective value: Position value that either fluctuates or shifts to another position.
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With everything else being equal, the position of the player who is first to start to act, has the lowest value; and the position of the player who is last to start to act has the greatest value.

The effective value of a player's position increases(+) when the # of players in the hand required to act before they act increases(+).

The effective value of a player's position decreases(-) when the # of players able to act after they act increases(+).

When one position opens the pot (bets first), every position with greater position value loses effective value as a result; likewise, every position with less position value, gains effective value as a result.

Only when a player folds their hand, does their position lose all effective value; likewise, whenever a player folds their hand, their position loses all effective value.

Player predictability, decreases the effective value of that player's position (the extent of which depends on the degree of predictability.)

When one position loses effective value, the positions to their right may aquire it whenever they still have an option to act in the betting round. _____________________________________

Applying these observations, can lead to other reasonable assumptions, for instance;

- Calling stations and maniacs can rely less on position for value because they are consistently predictable in every position, thereby decreasing every positions' value. However, whoever is seated to their right (assuming they are not predictable too) have increased position value in any position.

-the more people you have acting to your left with predictability to their play, the greater your position's value becomes (imagine that they are taking the lost value of the position to their left and just passing it down till it stops at you). Until, MP, for instance, could theoretically have the same value as the button. In which case, MP could then equitably call/raise the same range of starting cards they would have in late position.

-when one position opens the pot, every position with greater position value loses effective value as a result, and every position with less position value, gains effective value as a result.

-Since betting/raising, simutaneously increases the # of players to act after, and before you, an exactly equal amount, it does not alter your positions' effective value.

-Given that everytime a player to your left folds, your position can potentially gain value, and betting doesn't decrease your positions' value, with regard to the concept of position value, it appears that betting when you have fold equity is never a bad idea.

[huggybear96]

c'mon, everybody knows position is important!

[Shroomy]

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When one position opens the pot (bets first), every position with greater position value loses effective value as a result; likewise, every position with less position value, gains effective value as a result.


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At the mimium I would add that this effect of relative position to the bettor on position to the button is temporary and is lost (or at least dimished) after the round of betting is completed (i.e. if it happened on the flop, on the turn you are still back to the same betting order)

[Shroomy]

[ QUOTE ]

-Given that everytime a player to your left folds, your position can potentially gain value, and betting doesn't decrease your positions' value, with regard to the concept of position value, it appears that betting when you have fold equity is never a bad idea.

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Absolutley not correct, very often, even most of the time, the cost of the bet is greater than the increased value you may possibly gain. True by betting you are giving the person a chance to fold and increase your equity two ways, by him not being in the pot and by having better positin later. BUT!!! you are also paying the cost of the bet and giving the opponent a chance to raise. The cost of the bet and gaining value by alowing your opponent the oportunity to fold are so much more important than the slight positional value change that they shouldn't even be talked about together except in the most marginal of situations.