AKo on button early in 180

xoom · #1 07-19-2006, 06:52 PM

A couple of hands into the tournament. SB doubled up on first with AA against KQo on AKx board. Should I be willing to put my tournament on the line here in these situations against unknowns? Any comments on this hand at all is welcome, as I am going through a bit of a downswing at the moment.

Stack sizes:
MP2: t1420
Hero: t1540
SB: t3000

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
3 folds, MP2 raises to t40, CO folds, Hero raises to t140, SB calls t130 (pot was t210), BB folds, MP2 calls t100 (pot was t340).

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t440, 3 players)
SB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets t240, SB raises to t480, MP2 folds, Hero calls t240 (pot was t1160).

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t1400, 2 players)
SB bets t600, Hero raises all-in t920, SB calls t320 (pot was t2920).

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t3240, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t3240)

Results:
Final pot: t3240

Vega · #2 07-19-2006, 07:47 PM

You are in a tough spot. The SB cold-calling PF makes me think he doesnt have a monster. Then he Check-Raises you for double. Now you have to give him some respect... first thing i would assume is TT or AT, which seems fitting for cold-calling PF.

The turn he bets right out... if he was trying to steal the pot or get a free card he wouldnt have bet. So now it seems you are in bad shape.. hes clearly showing strength.

I think i would have Re-Raised on the flop to truley find out where i stood. If he had a hand, there would be no question he would push. Then I could throw away the hand.
This way i could maybe save some chips to rebuild.

0evg0 · #3 07-19-2006, 07:50 PM

Easy push. And push the flop next time after his minraise.

xdeucesx · #4 07-19-2006, 07:54 PM

Min raises suck...in a 180 man, I think you are almost required to stick it in on the flop to his min raise.

Vega · #5 07-19-2006, 08:03 PM

This is something I've been thinking about a lot... I've noticed that a lot of peoples normal response is to push. I think its a good play, I actually thought of that then changed my mind to Re-Raising. Though this play is clearly a push, i try to figure out ways to maybe cut my losses, which isnt a bad thing. In this situation i think a re-raise would accomplish the same thing as a push. If the SB was trying a move on the hero, then he would fold to a re-raise or a push. The only difference is... a push can lose you all your chips.

The reason i chose re-raise was because something didn't look right. The cold-call didnt show much, except a marginal hand like pocket pair. Since the hero raised PF, theres no way someone could try to make a steal move on the flop, it just doesnt make sense. Especially with the ace showing. Though his double re-raise does look fishy, to me it seemed like something i would do if I flopped a set or two pair. I wouldnt want to push or else i would lose my opponent, especially if he had KQ. So instead he made a marginal raise keeping his opponent in the hand.

I'm just saying I don't think telling someone to push is always good advice... even though in this situation it might have been.

xoom · #6 07-19-2006, 09:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You are in a tough spot. The SB cold-calling PF makes me think he doesnt have a monster. Then he Check-Raises you for double. Now you have to give him some respect... first thing i would assume is TT or AT, which seems fitting for cold-calling PF.

The turn he bets right out... if he was trying to steal the pot or get a free card he wouldnt have bet. So now it seems you are in bad shape.. hes clearly showing strength.

I think i would have Re-Raised on the flop to truley find out where i stood. If he had a hand, there would be no question he would push. Then I could throw away the hand.
This way i could maybe save some chips to rebuild.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spot on. He had AT for a flopped two pair and I'm out. However, I still think getting it all in there is a +EV play. Assuming I'm up against your regular donk, I'm taking all his chips when he flop top pair with a weaker kicker almost all the time. But what about 'not going broke with top pair'? Or does this simply not apply to the early stages of donkaments?

If you add in a check-minraise in the mix as well, shouldn't I be able to find a fold here?

AceLuby · #7 07-19-2006, 10:03 PM

w/ only 920 after the call on the flop I think you need to push this. It's early and if he out flopped you then that's poker, you did everything you could to get him out PF. I mean how was he supposed to know he was dominated w/ a raise and a reraise PF...

Keevon · #8 07-19-2006, 10:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think i would have Re-Raised on the flop to truley find out where i stood. If he had a hand, there would be no question he would push. Then I could throw away the hand.
This way i could maybe save some chips to rebuild.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any reraise you can make here pot commits you. Folding after that would be horrible, as you would certainly be getting pot odds against the range of hands he could have after 4bet pushing.

AceLuby · #9 07-19-2006, 11:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is something I've been thinking about a lot... I've noticed that a lot of peoples normal response is to push. I think its a good play, I actually thought of that then changed my mind to Re-Raising. Though this play is clearly a push, i try to figure out ways to maybe cut my losses, which isnt a bad thing. In this situation i think a re-raise would accomplish the same thing as a push. If the SB was trying a move on the hero, then he would fold to a re-raise or a push. The only difference is... a push can lose you all your chips.

The reason i chose re-raise was because something didn't look right. The cold-call didnt show much, except a marginal hand like pocket pair. Since the hero raised PF, theres no way someone could try to make a steal move on the flop, it just doesnt make sense. Especially with the ace showing. Though his double re-raise does look fishy, to me it seemed like something i would do if I flopped a set or two pair. I wouldnt want to push or else i would lose my opponent, especially if he had KQ. So instead he made a marginal raise keeping his opponent in the hand.

I'm just saying I don't think telling someone to push is always good advice... even though in this situation it might have been.

[/ QUOTE ]

This advice is off... saving chips to rebuild is really weak. If you are betting 1/3 - 1/2 your stack or more you really should be pushing and folding to a re-raise, at that point you are going to be getting odds anyway.

Try this in the micro turbos on Stars and you'll just spew chips.