Why the Stop + Go Works (long and poorly written)

[jcm4ccc]

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There are times when a person might fold rather than push preflop, but then they decide that doing a stop-and-go gives them that extra edge to make call/push flop more profitable than folding. Generally, this is a bad idea. If you would rather fold than push, then you should also rather fold than stop-and-go.

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Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t750/t1500
(Ante: t75)
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t34048
UTG+1: t53088
MP1: t20694
MP2: t27058
MP3: t23747
CO: t36758
Button: t60156
SB: t28067
Hero: t12953

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
6 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to t6000</font>, SB folds, Hero calls t4500 <font color="#aaaaaa">(pot was t8250)</font>.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t13425, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero is all-in t6878</font>, Button folds.
Uncalled bets: t6878 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: t13425

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Note that I said "generally." As you know, people play the Stop and Go way more than they should, and I think one of the reasons is that they think it gives them that extra edge to make a fold a push. And generally they are wrong.

And I guess your post means that, if the stop and go was an illegal move and your only option here was to fold or push, you would fold your QTs here.

[adanthar]

OK, that was a fun hand I just wanted to post again for pwnage and not really a huge lesson or anything, although I do think 'generally' should be further qualified [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The guy had a big range so I think I'd stop and go with a king also, not sure though.

[purp]

Below the level of conversation here but still some good simple advice that was given to me when I started playing was as follows:

Stop and Go
Use it sparingly
Use it around the bubble when you are short stacked
Look for good spots to use it, eg where a biggish stack min raises on the button or CO and you're the BB with a below average stack.
Your flop push should be around the size of the pot.

Like I said simple stuff but many use it way too often.

[2Fast]

I play lower stakes and this is probably a donkish question so I'm ready to get flamed but I was thinking a couple things about this hand:

1) Your stack is so short (M= ~ 4.4) and you're last to act here and cold calling about 1/2 your stack to button's raise - if I'm button I think I'm pretty wary that you have something pretty good here due to the lack of a shove and I proceed pretty cautiously (esp. since my raising range is pretty wide here I think), therefore....

2) since you flopped a nut gutshot straight and backdoor flush draw you a few outs, may be ahead already and you can also expect Villain to think you're pretty strong and this flop probably helped you. So does it make sense to even think about perhaps checking here? Or alternatively, betting say 1/3 of pot or (which is sort of insane as it's like more than half your stack I guess, but would also evidence serious strength).

Meh, I think the answer is "no" and I push this flop but I was wondering if there is any sort of adjustment that might be worthwhile to make in this situation given the flop.

[Holdemphile]

Noah,

I don't like the stop and go with AK. If someone raises with a low to medium pair, you should have some fold equity preflop depending on your chip stack. Against unpaired high cards, especially AQ, you can probably get a call preflop from many opponents. If you have AK, an no A or K flops, most pairs will call, in my experience, given that you are short when they look at the size of the raised pot. Overpairs will almost always call. However, if you have two high cards other than AK, and your opponent is on AK or AQ, and neither of you flop anything, he will probably fold if you have a sufficient stack to perform the maneuver. For example, KQ might get AK or AQ to fold to the push. Also, AQ might get AK to fold to the push on the flop. Other hands you should consider stop and go with are JT, KJ, etc.

Also, small pairs, make for good stop and gos where you might get higher pairs to fold due to overcards hitting on the flop.

I like to perform the stop and go with these hands, especially when I think my opponent might be on a steal, so that I am often against a worse hand.

Holdemphile

[SmileyEH]

How much disadvantage do you think it would be if one never used a stop'n'go?

-SmileyEH

[pineapple888]

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How much disadvantage do you think it would be if one never used a stop'n'go?

-SmileyEH

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Minimal. This just came up in the STT forum where the pros 8-table or more and often don't have time for these subtleties. A really good stop-and-go doesn't come up all that often and you're not giving up all that much anyway given that sometimes you hit the flop and don't actually want them to fold after all.

[Exitonly]

like holdemphile said.. you don't always want them to fold.. like with your AK hand.. sure you might get some small pairs to fold, but more likely you're getting worse A-high hands, or some other non paired crap to fold. They don't have to be making a mistake for it to be +EV for you.

edit to illustrate:

You have black AA, blinds 100/200, you have 2600, you raise to 600 UTG, get 5 callers.

Flop: (pot 3k)
K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

you push for 2k, and some guy calls with 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], the rest fold. His call is +EV for you, and +EV for him.

[nath]

One point:

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4) Don't stop and go good players. The reason that stop and gos work is because you're giving players a chance to make a dumb mistake. Good players don't make dumb mistakes, so stop + going them can't be profitable.

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A good player will be occasionally raising with a wide enough range that it is still incorrect for him to call most flops-- or that you want to push him off of postflop but you aren't sure if he'll fold preflop and you don't know if you're crushing him or he's crushing you-- or will get a flop that is really brutal for his hand and fold anyway.

I stop and goed Barry Greenstein yesterday. It worked; he actually got scared that I had a monster because I called 1/3 of my stack preflop.

And the flipside, I open in some party poker tournament in EP with A9, big blind who knows me calls and instapushes flop. I know he's stop and going but the flop is KQJ and I have A9. Even armed with the best knowledge possible I am still forced into a difficult decision.

[yimyammer]

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Adanthar,

If the Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] do you jam PF?

Regards,
Woodguy

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What difference does this make?