PS 20/180 FT hand

[hyde]

Hand history is gone missing..

8 left final table
blinds are 1000/2000ish
Hero utg KQ 13,000 shortest stack.
most stacks 20-50K
big stack is 65K utg+2

I push.
I figure this is the last of my FE.
I figure everyone fears the UTG raise/push
I figure I'm representing middle pair.
so it's going to be a coin flip.
I figure most are not going to want a coin flip for 1/2 -1/4 of their stack.

Should I have waited for an Ace?

thanks,
hyde

[FeNeF]

I shove.

[Chief911]

You have to keep this in context man. And I think alot of what you said is not right.

FE - This is not the last of your FE. Go through the blinds, you still have 10K, steal once, and you have the same FE as you had before.

Fearing UTG Push - Probably right. But amazingly alot of people read it for what it is, a semi-desperate push, and will call you with any Ax or PP.

Representing? This is a 20/180. I can dare say 1/2 the people at this table do not think beyond what they have in THEIR hand. Why would they contemplate what you have? That's just silliness...to them.

Re: not wanting to coinflip for 1/2 their stack. True of the 20k stack, but the 40k stack who wakes up with A9 says "Gambooool!"

Lastly. "Should I have waited for an ace?" No, but you should have waited til after the blind IMHO.

Now, that said, I've been known to donk-min-bet here, as I think that's a more effective move. If the BB calls, move in on any flop.

Nick

[fro_dude]

I think you're off base thinking that people will fear a short stack UTG all-in move. If anything they will be inclined to call you with less of a hand because they know you're looking to make a move B4 your blinds come. This is an easy push IMO...but I would expect to get a call from almost any ace and any pair. I wouldn't mind knowing where and what the other stacks at the table are. Be aware of the pot odds you're laying to the blinds, and based on their stacks how likely it is that they will call you. BB has to call 11,000 for 17,600...pretty good odds.

[FeNeF]

[ QUOTE ]
You have to keep this in context man. And I think alot of what you said is not right.

FE - This is not the last of your FE. Go through the blinds, you still have 10K, steal once, and you have the same FE as you had before.

Fearing UTG Push - Probably right. But amazingly alot of people read it for what it is, a semi-desperate push, and will call you with any Ax or PP.

Representing? This is a 20/180. I can dare say 1/2 the people at this table do not think beyond what they have in THEIR hand. Why would they contemplate what you have? That's just silliness...to them.

Re: not wanting to coinflip for 1/2 their stack. True of the 20k stack, but the 40k stack who wakes up with A9 says "Gambooool!"

Lastly. "Should I have waited for an ace?" No, but you should have waited til after the blind IMHO.

Now, that said, I've been known to donk-min-bet here, as I think that's a more effective move. If the BB calls, move in on any flop.

Nick

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm almost certain this is +cEV. You won't get called by ace-rag very often, even at the 20/180s. I really think pushing here is superior to folding.

Minraising on the other hand.. I dunno. But I don't think you should fold.

[bambam16]

I had almost this exact situation in a Party $30 on the bubble last night, same hand, about same stack in relation to the blinds, and same position. I shoved and got looked up by big stack's 88 in the BB, lost it, and I was gone. Of course I knew it was a flip and shouldn't be too disappointed getting it in with those odds, but I thought about it for a while and wondered if it was the smart play.

If you say you just want to pick up the blinds, wouldn't it be a better proposition to let the blinds pass and push any two from LP? My thoughts were that the hands that called me were at best a small favorite, and usually have me dominated. Obviously table dynamics and reads are important here, but I think in future situations I might consider dumping it and looking for a better spot in a later position (as Nick mentioned).

[hyde]

[ QUOTE ]

If you say you just want to pick up the blinds, wouldn't it be a better proposition to let the blinds pass and push any two from LP? but I think in future situations I might consider dumping it and looking for a better spot in a later position (as Nick mentioned).

[/ QUOTE ]


My thought was I would prefer a decent hand leading the betting from a position where it would be assumed I was not playing total junk, than letting the blinds go through and need to try to steal with any two from an obvious steal position.
And the big stack was two or three to my left, so I would have been trying to steal his blinds....

and I have thought that I might have waited and maybe another player or two would have dropped out. I had that happen at a a final table a month ago. I was short stacked with a full final table but finished 4th because the table went nuts all around me. I just kept typing "gg" and moving up the ladder.... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[weimoxer]

I also agree above, a short stack raise UTG is desperation not strength, and a very wide range of hands. Like was also mentioned it is a 20/180 so likely the Button maybe even cutoff or blinds will also call with any ace or pp because u are short.

[rppkoz]

I really don't understand the min bet idea here. This is a clear push/fold situation, and pushing is definitely +++EV. KQ and an M under 5, open push EVERY time.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't understand the min bet idea here. This is a clear push/fold situation, and pushing is definitely +++EV. KQ and an M under 5, open push EVERY time.

[/ QUOTE ]
With ante, OP's M is 4. Just push and hope no one has QQ-AA or AQ-AK.

I don't understand what OP says about waiting for an ace. KQ is usually a better hand to push with than Ax.