Happy to get it in here, or a hand to get away from? - Page 2

Ben Young · #11 07-18-2006, 09:31 AM

push, at this level, you are going to get called by tpgk and flush draws a lot of the time

los_toros · #12 07-18-2006, 09:57 AM

stack a d-o-n-k

smoothraise · #13 07-18-2006, 10:28 AM

Wait, please dont run away with push as the right answer because it is clearly +EV.

Folding flop is not an option, imo. Calling and pushing are our only two options. Both, I believe, to be very much +EV. I am interested in which is more +EV.

Pushing is easy and probally correct and rarely wrong. Easy advice, but is it the best move?

Assuming you can play the turn "well," why is pushing flop superior to calling and evaluating? It seems to me that we will get great information on turn and play somewhat close to perfect here in many situations. Pushing is great if you dont have the time to analyze the situation, but I think it might not be our best move.

Why am I the only one who wants to see more before offering our stack to (admitatly) slightly possible big hands when we can get this information for a huge fraction of payoff price? Am I missing something?

4_2_it · #14 07-18-2006, 10:34 AM

smoothraise,

Stacks are not big enough to afford a call and evaluate. Villains have less then a pot-sized bet behind. They are both committed to this pot.

Better to push when you have the best of it than to let them draw out so you can make a heroic fold on the turn/river with the worst of it.

At worst, hero earns some nice Sklansky bucks here.

smoothraise · #15 07-18-2006, 11:33 AM

"Am I missing something." <--my quote

"Stacks are not big enough to afford to call and evaluate." <-- 42it

Oops. I did miss something. I incorrectly assumed all had greater than and/or roughly equal to 100bb stacks. I am unable to figure out why I assumed this now that I know I was clearly wrong. Selective memory/thinking is a likely answer. The shorter the stacks get, pushing is more and more +EV compared to other alternatives. With the correct stacks, I believe I was wrong.

Pushing is seemingly correct because checking turn will not give us sufficent information on turn because our opponents move(s) will be influenced too greatly by "pot committedness" rather than true strength. We will not be able to play as close to perfect as I had previously thought.

Theoritcal question though 42it: If all stacks were 100bb does your position change?

edit: I typed check flop in 4th paragraph but meant turn, so it is corrected.

4_2_it · #16 07-18-2006, 12:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Theoritcal question though 42it: If all stacks were 100bb does your position change?

[/ QUOTE ]

The bigger the stacks get, the more I am inclined to call and try to get to a cheap showdown.

After all, hero only has a 1-pair hand. Calling all-in turn/river bets with one pair is a quick way to go broke at SSNL (without a donktastic read of course.)

I don't know if the magic number is 100bb, 1500bb or more. It really depends on my reads on villains and my table image.

Dan Bitel · #17 07-18-2006, 01:23 PM

smooth,

the other reason to push now is to protect your hand vs a FD

Ben Young · #18 07-18-2006, 01:31 PM

what exactly are sklansky bucks?

smoothraise · #19 07-18-2006, 01:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
smooth,

the other reason to push now is to protect your hand vs a FD

[/ QUOTE ]

The fd is very obvious. What... I am not sure how to respond....This was factored in a long time ago.

smoothraise · #20 07-18-2006, 01:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
smooth,

the other reason to push now is to protect your hand vs a FD

[/ QUOTE ]

The fd is very obvious. What... I am not sure how to respond....This was factored in a long time ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was too harsh here. I have a tremendous amount of respect for dbitel and that is not shown here. I sincerely did not know how to respond. This is simply an apology for responding too harshly to dbitel.

edit:gramar/spelling