Allin every time right?

[notevenhere]

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I can probably construct a set of hands that results in your AA drawing DEAD vs 12 opponents.

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LOL, do it.

notevenhere,

You are right in saying that if AA and 12 other hands went to the felt pf, we would be a dog. We would also be a hugely +EV dog. Stop worrying about winning pots and start worrying about winning money.

Also, if we call instead of push here, we are definitely not giving villains odds to hit a set.

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Button is getting correct implied odds to hit his set.

There is $26.15 in the pot before button calls. Hero has $14.50 to go. Add that up, and we have $40.65. Add that to the $14.60 from UTG+1, and we have $55.25. Better than 10-1 implied odds to call.


You speak as if winning money and pots have no correlation at all.

Button being in the hand decreases our chances of winning every time. This is plain indisputable fact. Button being in the hand also increases the size of the pot. So in order to want the button in this pot, the increased amount of money he puts in must justify the decrease in Hero's chances to win.

If your argument is that the decrease in winning % is offset by the extra money put into the pot by button, this is a valid argument. I would not happen to agree, but I can see the merits. However, making a flippant statement like:

"Stop worrying about winning pots and start worrying about winning money."

is just ignoring the issue altogether, which is not in any way instructive.

Pokerstove puts AA vs any random hand at ~85% chance to win. It puts AA vs any 2 random hands at ~70% chance to win. Now I know we are not up against random hands here. We're up against some fairly defined hands. Say, for instance, we are up against KK and QQ. Against a single one of those hands, we are 82% to win. Playing vs both, we are 67% to win. Same 15% difference. Obviously, the news is much better if we are up against at least one AK. But for sake or argument, allow for the 15% to be used here.

By pushing the button away, you gain an extra 15% equity. To put it another way, the number of times you lose this hand is reduced by HALF.

Now, I personally doubt that an all-in pre-flop by the Hero in this situation pushes either player out. By the looks of the hand, all 3 are going to the felt.

To say that forcing the button to fold is a bad idea in absolute terms, that is simply incorrect. Our FE in this situation vs button, however tiny it is, is EV+ imo.

But say you don't believe that argument. Why is calling better? Doesn't calling give Button-Villain who is holding KK a reason to bail when an A falls on the flop? Doesn't a King calling make his hand? Why do you want to make any kind of post flop decision in this hand?

[BalugaWhale]

I am going all-in postflop regardless. While letting KK get scared by an A may happen, we also may let KJ catch a K and stack off while he might've folded pf had we pushed. Either option is fine IMO.

However, you fail to see that the added money from having the 3rd person go all-in pf more than makes up for our loss in equity.

We have the nuts pf, why wouldn't we want as many people as we can to go all-in?

[notevenhere]

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I am going all-in postflop regardless. While letting KK get scared by an A may happen, we also may let KJ catch a K and stack off while he might've folded pf had we pushed. Either option is fine IMO.

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You're willing to put either of the 2 opponents on something as horrible as KJ? If they are truly stupid enough to follow KJ this far, why would you ever think they wouldn't put it all-in pre-flop?

KJ is simply not a likely holding.

Either option is fine? Sure. I simply prefer the one that is better among the two that are fine.

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However, you fail to see that the added money from having the 3rd person go all-in pf more than makes up for our loss in equity.

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Are you actually reading my posts? How is it that I have failed to see this? I specifically address this issue directly, which is something you have never done up until now.

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We have the nuts pf, why wouldn't we want as many people as we can to go all-in?

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You want as many people to go all-in as possible when you have the nuts. 100% AGREED. And you have the nuts PRE-FLOP. So get all the damn money in pre-flop right? Yet your advice is to smooth call PF, then push on the flop. Are you contending HERO has the nuts post-flop?



All-in pre-flop accomplishes 2 things:

1) Gets in all your money with the best hand.
2) Takes advantage of our FE (however tiny a % it may be), in order to increase our chances of winning an already huge pot. If there in fact we had 0% FE, then we increased the size of the pot and maintained our equity, which is always good when our equity is this high.


Calling pre-flop accomplishes:

1) Allowing button implied odds for set
2) Pushing flop when we may no longer have the best hand
3) Giving a hand like KK a chance to get away from hand when A falls, and a chance to correctly call when K falls. Apply this to any lower PP hitting a set as well.
4) Increasing the size of pot at the expense of out winning %.


You better believe that reason #4 trumps reasons #1-3 by a ton to call instead of push PF.

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push all in preflop, pot is already almost 20 preflop, yoru concern is winning whats in there and protecting your hand, not trying to extract more. pot is too big to risk being outdrawn by the likely kk/qq/jj yoru up against. they are both likely calling your all in anyway

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100% agree with this.

[Chris_ca]

Why would you not get all your chips in preflop? This is your dream scenario preflop with aces.

[Keys Myaths]

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Easiest preflop all-in ever. I could see smoothcalling if it were heads up, if villains were any good, or if they had a lot of money left behind and could possibly fold to your all-in.

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I understand pushing pre-flop, that's given, but there are three or four people in this thread that want people to fold to my preflop AI.

WHY?

That's absolutely ridiculous. We want them to call, all day long, unless they're getting pot-odds to call (which they aren't with a lower PP or AK, which is what they would normally have here).

So what's the deal? Are people here that much afraid of a bad beat?

[FeNeF]

Calling PF is pretty clearly better IMO. You don't need to "protect" your aces preflop in a situation like this, the more the merrier.

If you can't stomach losing a pot to a 77 that catches up then move down a level.

[Dopey]

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I can probably construct a set of hands that results in your AA drawing DEAD vs 12 opponents.

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LOL, do it.


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I was bored but I think he is right. Any fewer opponents and youve atleast got outs to chop.(I may be wrong as I dont have an odds calculator that will work with 10+ hands):

Hero has Ac As

vs.

AhAd
JcJs
TcTs
ThTd
5c5s
5h5d
2c2s
3c4c
KcQs
9s8s
7c6c
7s6s

So if you ever find yourself playing 13 handed and you get all-in preflop and your opponents turn over all these hands, your drawing dead. Just getup and leave, dont wait to see the board because it will not matter (Actually if your in a 13 handed game and everyone gets allin with these hands..... Stay because that should be a damn good game)

Dopey [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[FeNeF]

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I was bored but I think he is right. Any fewer opponents and youve atleast got outs to chop.(I may be wrong as I dont have an odds calculator that will work with 10+ hands):

Hero has Ac As

vs.

AhAd
JcJs
TcTs
ThTd
5c5s
5h5d
2c2s
3c4c
KcQs
9s8s
7c6c
7s6s

So if you ever find yourself playing 13 handed and you get all-in preflop and your opponents turn over all these hands, your drawing dead. Just getup and leave, dont wait to see the board because it will not matter (Actually if your in a 13 handed game and everyone gets allin with these hands..... Stay because that should be a damn good game)

Dopey [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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Kc Qc 9c 8c 2d

[notevenhere]

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Easiest preflop all-in ever. I could see smoothcalling if it were heads up, if villains were any good, or if they had a lot of money left behind and could possibly fold to your all-in.

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I understand pushing pre-flop, that's given, but there are three or four people in this thread that want people to fold to my preflop AI.

WHY?

That's absolutely ridiculous. We want them to call, all day long, unless they're getting pot-odds to call (which they aren't with a lower PP or AK, which is what they would normally have here).

So what's the deal? Are people here that much afraid of a bad beat?

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Read the thread carefully. Don't misrepresent what others above have been saying. I'll recap since you don't understand the point of contention.

Hero concedes that he is all-in no matter what the flop brings. So the question is:

What is better? Calling pre-flop, or pushing?

Pushing is standard, so we don't need to discuss why it is good. However, some have advocated calling instead of pushing. So we are discussing the merits.

The advocates for calling are contending that pushing may result in people folding.

My point is that if they fold, great. We've just increased our chances of winning in a big pot. If they come along, great. Now we have all our money in with the best hand.


Also, did you miss the discussion on how calling gives implied odds to someone with any PP?


Calling is less EV than pushing. That is the argument.

[Dopey]

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Kc Qc 9c 8c 2d

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Kc is used (Kc Qs)