Reluctant to raise 99 preflop

johnzzz · #1 07-14-2006, 04:36 AM

Paradise Poker 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. UTG+1 posts a blind of $0.05.
UTG calls, UTG+1 (poster) checks, 1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

The SSHE chart says to raise 99 preflop from this position, but I am always reluctant - there's 5 bigger pairs for the high card chasers, not to mention all the lowlimit drawers, but I'll keep to the chart until I know better.

Flop: (8.40 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Is my next move dumb? Nobody bet so I protect my 99. There are two big cards K and J sitting there, I'm not sure at all.

Turn: (6.20 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

What's the 5 got to do with anything? A set? Two pair? Someone slowplaying KK?
Should I have folded?

River: (10.20 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 raises, Hero folds, BB 3-bets, UTG+1 caps, BB calls.

I put BB on top-pair, and UTG+1 on a set, and pull the ejector.

Final Pot: 18.20 BB

johnnytt · #2 07-14-2006, 05:03 AM

I fold to the turn bet here with two overcards to your pair on the board and 3 opponents calling your flop bet you have to figure someone has a K or J.

Alot of times I am even scared to bet this flop but after being checked to I probably give it a shot.

VickreyAuction · #3 07-14-2006, 05:04 AM

Raising PF and Cbetting the flop are good. Once you're called by 3 people on a flop with two overcards, fold the turn. If it gets checked to you again on the turn, check. You're almost certainly drawing to two outs.

Triggerle · #4 07-14-2006, 07:12 AM

While a c-bet in this situation is almost mandatory in higher levels, I'm not entirely sure about it here.

At these limits 4-handed you don't have any fold equity so you're not protecting your hand by betting.

You're not going to get any information either because TP likely won't raise you.

And finally, I don't think you can bet for value here either because you won't make your set on the turn (2 outs) often enough. You're getting four more bets into the pot for the cost of one, but you won't win one out of four times.

With your position at these limits I would check behind and c/f the turn unless you make your set.

kerowo · #5 07-14-2006, 12:32 PM

The c-bet is standard on the flop. You are hoping people will fold some overcards putting you on AK. When someone bets into you on the turn though you are done. If the board was all undercards you could 3-bet the villain with top pair and note if he is slow playing a big hand.

The reason you raise 99 pre-flop is for value, chances are it is the best hand pre-flop. You are trying to fold weak overcard hands that may limp and are representing a quality hand that may get over cards to fold on ace high flops when you c-bet. Think of the continuation bet as the last money you are going to put into the pot ui when there are overs on the board. Unless, of course, you have reads that someone will call down with ace high or something.

MrWookie · #6 07-14-2006, 12:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
While a c-bet in this situation is almost mandatory in higher levels, I'm not entirely sure about it here.

At these limits 4-handed you don't have any fold equity so you're not protecting your hand by betting.

You're not going to get any information either because TP likely won't raise you.

And finally, I don't think you can bet for value here either because you won't make your set on the turn (2 outs) often enough. You're getting four more bets into the pot for the cost of one, but you won't win one out of four times.

With your position at these limits I would check behind and c/f the turn unless you make your set.

[/ QUOTE ]

cbets are never mandatory. I check the flop behind and hope for that miracle turn. Easy turn fold as played, sheesh.

BromfieldWizard · #7 07-14-2006, 02:02 PM

I don't like raising with pocket 9s preflop in microlimit games. The problem is that hardly anybody in these games would ever fold two overcards, which means the flop is likely going to at least present scare cards if not pair someone's higher card. You couldn't call a reraise in good conscience after a flop with high cards.

Why not just play 99 for a set? Limp-in. Because so many micro-limit players are loose-passive call-freaks you have good implied odds using it as a draw hand. If you hit a 3rd 9 on the flop there will likely be some guy who will call your standard-sized bets through the river to a showdown with something like a mid-pair or top-pair. And hell, maybe you'll be lucky enough to get a flop where all (or maybe even just 2) cards are lower than a 9. You could then be aggressive.

Then again I'm a n00b.

MrWookie · #8 07-14-2006, 02:10 PM

At incredibly loose passive (read, mega awesome) games, I could see limping in EP. In late position, though, there's too much value in this hand not to raise preflop.

kerowo · #9 07-14-2006, 03:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like raising with pocket 9s preflop in microlimit games. The problem is that hardly anybody in these games would ever fold two overcards, which means the flop is likely going to at least present scare cards if not pair someone's higher card. You couldn't call a reraise in good conscience after a flop with high cards.

Why not just play 99 for a set? Limp-in. Because so many micro-limit players are loose-passive call-freaks you have good implied odds using it as a draw hand. If you hit a 3rd 9 on the flop there will likely be some guy who will call your standard-sized bets through the river to a showdown with something like a mid-pair or top-pair. And hell, maybe you'll be lucky enough to get a flop where all (or maybe even just 2) cards are lower than a 9. You could then be aggressive.

Then again I'm a n00b.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many cards are there higher than 9?
How many cards are there less than 9?

TomTom · #10 07-14-2006, 04:01 PM

Remember: most flops miss most hands. While 9's may be the bottom end of premium wired pairs, they are still premium.

Don't just play them for set value. One trick: Look at the flop and imagine the top card is a deuce. Then decide your action.

I pick up a lot of pots when I show PF strength then bet out on the flop into an overcard.