Stud h/l 8 tourney - calling when short stacked

[Tha Stunna]

Hi everyone,

I've read through the posts and didn't see much about single or two table tournaments. I've read Ray Zee's book and the stud h/l chapter in ss2, but I was wondering how to play the sit & gos (cheap ones right now, 16 player PS 1.50 + .25 where top four get money). Mainly, I end up short stacked (maybe 10 antes or so left after the limits increase) because I play tightly. I'd throw all my chips in on the first non terrible hand that I have (8 4 3, any medium pair or better) or a hand with an ace up.
Specifically, I was wondering when you should call another players all in if you're one place away from the money or in it. This situation occurred once, leaving me confused but happy...

Tournament - Stud H/L 8 or Better - Level XII (1,500/3,000), Ante 200 (converter)

Seat 1: 11,215
Seat 6: 11,030
Hero: 666
Seat 8: 1,089

3rd Street - (0.53 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets 889 and is all-in

4th Street - (3.13 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___all-in

5th Street - (2.56 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___all-in

6th Street - (4.56 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___all-in

River - (6.56 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___bets 2015 and is all-in
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___calls 1830 and is all-in
Seat 8: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___all-in

Total pot: (7.84 BB)

Results (in white):<font color="white">

Total pot 23349 Main pot 3467. Side pot 19882.

Seat 1: [Tc 3c Th Kd Ts Kc 7s] (HI: a full house, Tens full of Kings)

Seat 6: [4s As Ac 6s Jd 3d 6h] (HI: two pair, Aces and Sixes)

Seat 8: [9s Qh 7d 7c 5d Qs Ks] (HI: two pair, Queens and Sevens)

After the hand, I was heads up against seat 1 with 666 chips against his 23334. (I got 2nd.)

</font>

I was wondering what sort of hand I would have needed to call in this type of situation if the ace hadn't raised. Since this is 8 or better, the all in bettor could escape with a low about half the time (if they had a hand) against a person calling with trash or perhaps scoop with an accidental pair or two. Is it worth calling with a pair of aces? a pair of 8s? a 3-low with an ace? or should I just rely on the sort of luck displayed above?

Thanks for any help.

PS If anyone knows any tricks with the hand converter, please let me know... It keeps telling me that I'm playing razz.

[Spladle]

This is one of the easiest folds in the history of the world.

I haven't done the math, but I suspect that in order to call in this situation, you'd need rolled up trips, three suited cards 8 or lower, aces, or three wheel cards. Maybe three cards to a six.

Reason being that you are on the bubble. I'm not going to explain the dynamics of bubble play here, but to make a long story short, you should be playing squeaky tight.

[Andy B]

I'll make a note of the converter issue. Unless one of the big sites does something to their hand histories to render the converter useless, I'm probably not going to make any changes to it. If someone else steps forward, great.

As far as I know, you have all of the stud/8 literature that's worth anything. If you're playing tournaments, I do recommend Sklansky's TP4AP and the Harrington series. I'm working my way through HOH3, and it turns out that I haven't been thinking about the bubble properly in Sit-n-Gos. Because the payout structure is so flat, it behooves you to play super-tight on the bubble. The payout is 50-30-20, right? That means that the difference between fourth and third is the same as the difference between second and first--20% of the prize pool.

In the scenario you describe, you and one other player have tiny stacks and the other two players have comparatively large stacks (I have no idea how to play stud/8 with four bets in front of me, though). You're basically playing for third. The other guy has already put his stack in and the other players are staying with him. Especially with an Ace raising, there is an excellent chance that he will go broke this hand, giving you third place. If you call and lose, you will go out fourth, since you have the shortest stack. Even if you were to call and quadruple up, that wouldn't put you in very good shape to finish any higher than third. I think you would need an absolute monster to play here. It might even be correct to fold rolled-up trips for all I know.

Seat 8's going all-in on the bring-in may be the worst tournament play I've ever seen.

[pokahpro]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm working my way through HOH3, and it turns out that I haven't been thinking about the bubble properly in Sit-n-Gos. Because the payout structure is so flat, it behooves you to play super-tight on the bubble. The payout is 50-30-20, right? That means that the difference between fourth and third is the same as the difference between second and first--20% of the prize pool.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting! I was just listening to the Full Tilt podcasts last night, there is one with Howard Lederer that talks about exactly that. 60% of the money is awarded once 3rd is decided (20% to each player). This is very unlike a MTT where only very small percentages on the total are awarded on bubble.

[Alchemist]

[ QUOTE ]

Seat 8's going all-in on the bring-in may be the worst tournament play I've ever seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll play Devil's Advocate here.

Seat 8's ante and BI likely probably cost him 700 (200+500), leaving him with 389. Even though he's got a terrible hand, is it that much worse to just try and run with it as opposed to folding to a completion on 3rd? Is it not worth completing here if even there's a small hope one of the giant stacks will fold? He's got about 33% equity against (xx)A with about 70% of his stack in (against AxA he's about 15%). Even if he folds 3rd, he's got to pay at least another 200 next hand. Should he hope that Hero gets the BI and busts with it instead?

How big of a difference does it make if none of the other players have an Ace in the door?

[Andy B]

Lederer must've read the book too. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Spladle]

[ QUOTE ]
Even though he's got a terrible hand, is it that much worse to just try and run with it as opposed to folding to a completion on 3rd?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, it is much worse.
[ QUOTE ]
Is it not worth completing here if even there's a small hope one of the giant stacks will fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
No, it is not worth completing here.
[ QUOTE ]
He's got about 33% equity against (xx)A with about 70% of his stack in (against AxA he's about 15%). Even if he folds 3rd, he's got to pay at least another 200 next hand. Should he hope that Hero gets the BI and busts with it instead?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, he should hope that Hero gets the BI and busts with it instead.
[ QUOTE ]
How big of a difference does it make if none of the other players have an Ace in the door?

[/ QUOTE ]
None.

[AlanBostick]

The other small stack is in a terrible spot. Bubble or not, against another opponent, her chips pretty much must go in the middle with any three cards.

The only question is whether they go in the middle right away or if she calls a completion all-in.

That said, she has essentially no fold equity if she bets all-in. If it's folded to the ace, it is correct for that player to complete, even if all she has underneath is rainbow J-9.

If it's folded to our hero and our hero pushes in, I would want a playable hand -- basically, any pair -- to call.

So the right play for the small stack is to limp in and see what action develops. As this hand plays out, the ten completes and the ace raises, and now it's a clear fold.

But if one of the big stacks completes and the other players fold, the small-stack bring-in is committed.

To describe going all-in as the Worst.Tournament.Play.Evar, though, is either unfair exaggeration, or results-oriented thinking even without highlighting the text in white.

[Spladle]

[ QUOTE ]
The other small stack is in a terrible spot. Bubble or not, against another opponent, her chips pretty much must go in the middle with any three cards.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not true.
[ QUOTE ]
The only question is whether they go in the middle right away or if she calls a completion all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not true.
[ QUOTE ]
That said, she has essentially no fold equity if she bets all-in. If it's folded to the ace, it is correct for that player to complete, even if all she has underneath is rainbow J-9.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is true.
[ QUOTE ]
If it's folded to our hero and our hero pushes in, I would want a playable hand -- basically, any pair -- to call.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is horrible advice.
[ QUOTE ]
So the right play for the small stack is to limp in and see what action develops. As this hand plays out, the ten completes and the ace raises, and now it's a clear fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is true.
[ QUOTE ]
But if one of the big stacks completes and the other players fold, the small-stack bring-in is committed.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not true.
[ QUOTE ]
To describe going all-in as the Worst.Tournament.Play.Evar, though, is either unfair exaggeration, or results-oriented thinking even without highlighting the text in white.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nobody said it was the worst tournament play ever. Andy suggested that it might be the worst tournament play he had ever personally seen, which is certainly possible. It is unbelievably bad.

[Ray Zee]

most people play rather poorly when close to the money as they dont understand the differences it makes to your srategy and hand selection. so put some time in thinking about what is the right thing to do in different spots so when they come up you have some guidence.
the big problem is that you play too tight and let yourself get into a spot with so little chips that you have to have double good luck to survive. why wait and put all your chips in with junk because you have to because you will be anteed out. get those chips earlier on or be gone.