Min Betting/Raising

[Gorby]

Would someone please enlighten me, why so many people are min betting on-line? I play on PP and recently started playing .10/.25 NL. I used to play SNG only, but decided to change. I have noticed this happening on most tables I have played at. I have a couple of thoughts on this.

1. People have read somewhere this is a good idea.
2. People dont understand what pot odds are and have seen others do it, so they follow suit.
3. People usually click fold to any bet, so they risk the min in hope to get people that arent paying attention bet

I am definetly think this is the 3rd one here, but would like some input on why players are doing this. I just dont understand a $3 or $4 pot, betting .25.

Also this maybe the wrong forum, maybe this should be under Poker Theory, sorry if it should be.

[los_toros]

Far too often I have seen donkeys do this with TPTK and get called down ... regardless of if the board is 3 to a straight and three flushed. You'll only really see this occur with the truly terrible people trying to 'trap'.

[luke4130]

In my experience it is mostly no.2 it seems, weak players tend to be scared to bet a lot with a mediocre hand so they minbet. It is important to determine with a minbetting villain though, whether a minbet is strong or weak, one of my most frequently used notes is 'minbet weak' or 'minbet strong' so i know how to deal with them when they occur. In general though, minbets are normally weak and i treat them as such without a read otherwise. Minraises on the other hand are a whole different kettle of fish, they seem to be where weak players are afraid of scaring off a raiser, these have to be treated with a lot more caution.

[prayformojo]

For the most part, they are min-betting for the same reason they coldcall a 12BB pre-flop re-raise out of position with A8o, and for the same reason they limp/push 44, and for the same reason they call a PSB on the turn with an idiot end gutshot on a 3-flush board, and for the same reason they bluff $4 into a $30 pot, and for the same reason they have to re-deposit each time they play.

They are not good at poker. Determining why any particular bad play is favoured by a number of players is fruitless, because the specific motivation will be different from player to player. Recognize when the play is a bad one, and exploit it to the best of your ability with respect to the specific player.

There are exceptions, and sometimes the min-raise is correct. Most of your opponents won't understand the difference, but will occasionally stumble into the right time and the right place.

[los_toros]

Please remember to raise with air if someone bets <1/4 of the pot into you and you are the PFR in position. They will fold. I promise.

[Grunch]

A minbet, especially out-of-position on the flop, is almost always an indication of a marginal hand or no hand. When raised they will usually fold, and a second barrel will strip off most of the stragglers.

A min-raise however could be a couple different things. Most often, especially on the turn or river, a minraise is an indication of a strong hand. They want to raise, but not too much, so as to not 'lose customers.' Other times, especially on the flop when the initial bet is small or medium, it is an indication of a marginal or medium-strength hand that is looking to 'see where it't at.'

Whether a min-raise is a strong hand raising for value or a marginal hand probing the oppositionn is something you can determine based on reads. And I don't mean stats "reads" I mean actual reads.

[ThePortuguee]

Minbetting is, IMO, basically always incorrect, but happens for a number of reasons, in my experience.

1) A fish wants to "block" with a draw. THis is probably hte most common. Ironically, this does imply a vague sort of understanding of pot odds. the idea is if the fish bets a dollar you won't raise him and he'll get to draw cheaply. This is usually what your opponents hold if they minbet, you pop them significantly, and they instacall.

2) The fish wants to "block" with a marginal hand. Say he holds 77 in a raised pot on aboard of 8J2 or Q53. He realizes he might be beat but will minebet anyway. This can also happen, per (1), with hands like overcards or weird speculative hands with which fish woudl like to continue.

3) The fish believes his hand to be pretty good, and is afraid--but still willing--to invest a lot of money. Often if I significantly raise a minbet my opponent will fold per (2). Sometimes I'll haev to do it twice to price out a bizarre draw per (1). Occassionally, Ive seen fish minbet/call a raise on all three streets and take down a pot with TPGK or something along those lines. Ive even lost pots to AK on A high boards where the fish minbet/called down. It's bizarre. But this is the rationale.

Now, that said, I DO think there is a place for minRAISING in position, as a method to get to showdown cheaply with marginal holdings that are likely to be good but with which you dont want to invest a lot of money. Say you raise preflop with TT and the flop comes J52 and it checks through (whether you like that or not is irrelevent to the point this is just an example). Lets say teh turn comes 4, then someone leads into you for 3/4 pot. I like a minraise in spots like this. This isn't a great example but, if you hvae position, you can often minraise weird bets to get to showdown. You minraise, your opponent folds or clals then checks the river, and you see showdown for the minimum.

Just my thoughts.

EDIT: The other situation, BTW, which I forgot to include, is that the Villain wants to be raised wit a very strong hand, adn will suddenly pipe up and repop you. Most people prefer to c/raise those types of hands, but sometimes theyll try to bait you with a minbet.

[Gorby]

I agree, I should have clarified the min raise, I have seen people min raise a min bet.

I have made it a point to reraise almost any min bet that is made at me, and I feel the OB will fold. O and of course its a good raise not a min raise from the min bet.

[DrMega]

[ QUOTE ]
For the most part, they are min-betting for the same reason they coldcall a 12BB pre-flop re-raise out of position with A8o, and for the same reason they limp/push 44, and for the same reason they call a PSB on the turn with an idiot end gutshot on a 3-flush board, and for the same reason they bluff $4 into a $30 pot, and for the same reason they have to re-deposit each time they play.

They are not good at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

This made me laugh but it's very true. My guess is, as others have said as well, the bettor holds a weak offering or a draw and they want to set the betting.

Gorby and I were talking about this last night IRL while playing online and I guess what I found most odd about it was I can't remember ever seeing this six months ago, and now it seems like there's at least one person per table a night doing this with some regularity. Chalk it up to Internet poker's growing popularity I guess?

What I find most bizarre is when the fish will min bet bluff on the river with no pair, not even a reasonable high card. Hard to think bottom pair's good on the river but for .25 at a 3.50 pot I'm damn sure going to find out (assuming, of course, I have last action).

Here's to bad play, I guess. Cheers!