Ugly Axs Hand

OrigamiSensei · #1 07-11-2006, 01:33 PM

This was from my first session officially moving up to .25/.50 and it was pretty rocky.

Ultimate Bet 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: OrigamiSensei is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, OrigamiSensei calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

The table was running a bit loose so I limped. I know some people will come back with either the "open-limping is bad" or "fold pre-flop" but this should be perfectly fine on looser tables.

Flop: (5 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, OrigamiSensei calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds.

The flop is somewhat problematic because it provides opportunity and danger at the same time. I've hit top pair but the kicker issue is worrisome. I'm not folding with top pair, a gutshot and a backdoor nut flush draw. I would like to say I made some sort of cold-blooded calculation as to whether calling or raising was the right thing to do; unfortunately I'm pretty sure the truth is I was running weak-tight and a bit scared so I probably didn't give sufficient consideration to the raise. The more I think about it the more I think I should have 3-bet here.

Turn: (4 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, OrigamiSensei calls, CO raises, BB calls, OrigamiSensei calls.

Well, I still have my gutshot and my nut flush draw. The kicker is still very much a problem. I call. Then the raise hits behind me and I'm stuck calling again. Things are not looking good.

River: (10 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, OrigamiSensei calls, CO raises, BB calls, OrigamiSensei calls.

This card solves none of my problems but now I'm stuck. I can't lay it down for one, then the raise hits and even though I should know better I make the crying call.

Final Pot: 16 BB

car ramrod · #2 07-11-2006, 01:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This was from my first session officially moving up to .25/.50 and it was pretty rocky.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The table was running a bit loose so I limped. I know some people will come back with either the "open-limping is bad" or "fold pre-flop" but this should be perfectly fine on looser tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

I found these two quotes funny

kerowo · #3 07-11-2006, 01:46 PM

I read "rocky" as bumpy not rock gardenish.

Reads would make this easier and so would have raising the flop but I don't think you can get away from this hand on the river.

feroder_zb · #4 07-11-2006, 01:51 PM

PF: Limp is fine I think - table is loose and probably passive too.

Flop: That's a raise. In fact, when the player to my right bets in these situations, I say "YES!" because you get to face 3 players with calling 2 cold so they can fold thier gutshots and low pairs (maybe even A-rag if you're lucky)

Turn: turn play is different with a flop raise. As played I think its an easy raise again to protect your hand against CO again (b/c you don't know yet that he's going to raise) who could easily have Ax and you also picked up 9 more outs with the NFD.

River: I'm unsure with CO showing so much aggression on the turn. I think you could justify a fold after BB bets again with two players showing aggression on the turn. I could be way off though.

tehox · #5 07-11-2006, 01:51 PM

Post flop I think this is fine.

But I think preflop is open for discussion. And I think it is raise/fold in this situation.

HouseCalls · #6 07-11-2006, 01:51 PM

Ouch...

PF- I think limping in games like you describe is ok (I didn't say NEVER open limp just almost never [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]).

Flop - I think TPNK plus gutshot plus bdfd is enough to raise here. Assume you are behind. You have 5 outs to 2 pair or trips, 4 more to the gutshot, and 1.5 more to the nut flush. Call it 10.5 outs overall and your equity if you are going to the river (likely) is 41%. Against 5 players you only need just over 20% equity for this to be a value raise so have at it. Or to look at it another way as long as two opponents stay in the hand (likely) the raise is for value. Once you raise the rest plays differently.

car ramrod · #7 07-11-2006, 01:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I read "rocky" as bumpy not rock gardenish.

[/ QUOTE ]

that does make more sense. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

fwiw, I don't think pf is bad.

Fantam · #8 07-11-2006, 02:27 PM

I prefer OP's flop check to the suggestions for a flop raise.

If you have the best hand, a flop raise would be for value.

However, one of your 4 opponents could easily have a better Ace. Then your flop raise would only help to protect that player's hand. (I think its unlikely that a better Ace will fold.)

With your gut-shot outs, bdfd and the chance that your hand might be best, I think that its worth calling the flop bet.

However, if you raise the flop and a better Ace 3-bets, your draws start to lose value, particularly if this results in other players folding.

sean c · #9 07-11-2006, 02:28 PM

I like a flop raise here. You have TP, gutshot and the nut BDFD. There are three players left to act your hand is pretty strong and there are hands here that might peel for one but fold for two that we wouldn't mind folding.

kerowo · #10 07-11-2006, 02:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I prefer OP's flop check to the suggestions for a flop raise.

If you have the best hand, a flop raise would be for value.

However, one of your 4 opponents could easily have a better Ace. Then your flop raise would only help to protect that player's hand. (I think its unlikely that a better Ace will fold.)

With your gut-shot outs, bdfd and the chance that your hand might be best, I think that its worth calling the flop bet.

However, if you raise the flop and a better Ace 3-bets, your draws start to lose value, particularly if this results in other players folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you get 3-bet you can c/f the turn ui.