KTo - hand #1

Commie · #1 07-09-2006, 05:23 PM

I was wondering if I was correct to wait till the turn to raise. I wanted to wait to see a safe card drop before I start raising it up, plus I figured I would be able to trap my opponents in (assuming they stay in) on the expensive street if that safe card did come.

Comments on all streets welcome [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Pacific Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, CO calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4SB, 4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4BB, 4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, CO calls, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, CO calls.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (12BB, 4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets...

Leader · #2 07-09-2006, 05:33 PM

I'd just raise the flop. There's a lot of value there. But you didn't, so the rest is fine.

Caddy_4_Life · #3 07-09-2006, 05:43 PM

Raise the flop. You have an equity edge you need to push now.

Do you have any reads on the first two limpers? I can rarely think of a time limping in with KTo on the button after 2 players is correct. In the vast majority of situations, it's a fold.

-Caddy

Commie · #4 07-09-2006, 06:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop. You have an equity edge you need to push now.

Do you have any reads on the first two limpers? I can rarely think of a time limping in with KTo on the button after 2 players is correct. In the vast majority of situations, it's a fold.

-Caddy

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty new to 6-max so I was just using a starting hand chart in this situation and it told me to limp. But then again the 2nd chart I have says to not limp. I guess it's pretty marginal?

Is waiting till the turn to raise that bad?

I know people here love to advocate the "you got a good hand? dont think, just raise/reraise" method of playing, but isn't taking a slight risk of possibly losing customers on the turn paid off by the value you get if they stay in and are forced to call 2 on the turn instead of the flop?

I guess I've never really understood (from a value standpoint) why raising on the flop is more +EV than raising on the turn. Here's what I see:

Pros for raising flop:
1. Instant value and trap people in for 2 bets (possibly more if SB 3-bets).
2. Most likely you'll get checked to on the turn so you'll get a chance to reevaluate and act accordingly.

Pros for raising turn:
1. Get more value by trapping people for 2 (doesn't always happen, but on a loose-passive table like this it's more likely)
2. Get to wait for a safe turn card to decide to reraise or not.

bobhalford · #5 07-09-2006, 06:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop. You have an equity edge you need to push now.

Do you have any reads on the first two limpers? I can rarely think of a time limping in with KTo on the button after 2 players is correct. In the vast majority of situations, it's a fold.

-Caddy

[/ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with limping KT?

detruncate · #6 07-09-2006, 06:12 PM

I don't mind the way you played it, but a flop raise is better. The board isn't particularly coordinated. You have a good TP hand. Get your chips in now.

Caddy_4_Life · #7 07-09-2006, 06:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop. You have an equity edge you need to push now.

Do you have any reads on the first two limpers? I can rarely think of a time limping in with KTo on the button after 2 players is correct. In the vast majority of situations, it's a fold.

-Caddy

[/ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with limping KT?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's garbage 5-way.

-Caddy

brettbrettr · #8 07-09-2006, 06:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop. You have an equity edge you need to push now.

Do you have any reads on the first two limpers? I can rarely think of a time limping in with KTo on the button after 2 players is correct. In the vast majority of situations, it's a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. I disagree with just about everything you say. Weird.

brettbrettr · #9 07-09-2006, 06:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop. You have an equity edge you need to push now.

Do you have any reads on the first two limpers? I can rarely think of a time limping in with KTo on the button after 2 players is correct. In the vast majority of situations, it's a fold.

-Caddy

[/ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with limping KT?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's garbage 5-way.

-Caddy

[/ QUOTE ]

so raise, get it three way, and you're in position.

Oh, and its not garbage compared to what your opponents are playing.

Caddy_4_Life · #10 07-09-2006, 06:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]

2. Get to wait for a safe turn card to decide to reraise or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not really a pro. There are a lot of turn cards that suck as you know and now we can't raise, AND we missed a raise on the flop. We definitely didn't get as much value out of the hand as we could have.

A general rule of thumb is if the board is very co-ordinated it is better to raise immediately because there is reverse implied odds with the turn and river. Get your money in while you have an edge.

A good example of when to wait for the turn raise is:
2 limp you raise AA, SB folds, BB calls. 4 players in.

Flop K83r.
BB bets, UTG folds, MP calls, now you can call and can raise almost any turn card.

You give up the immediate edge now to take advantage of more value (double bet size) on the turn.

Miller's book SSHE goes into this in depth and gives some very good examples as well.

-Caddy