Free shodown w/ATo

ssmallz · #1 07-07-2006, 04:28 AM

Commerce 9/18 absolutely great game, little on the aggro side but extremely loose. 3 limpers to me in the CO, I look down and see AdTc. Button has been fairly passive the whole time as have been the blinds. I decide to limp in here. Button folds sb folds BB checks 5 of us to see the flop

Flop Ac 9c 4h

checked to LP limper directly to my right. He's pretty sane, a little too loose but I haven't seen him get out of line. He bets out I raise, folded back to him who calls

Turn brick of clubs

He leads into me, I think and decide to raise intending to check behind on any river.

My thinking: If he's got a low flush my Tc might be good if another club hits. If he doesn't have the flush, my A might be good. If he 3 bets me, his flush is bigger than my Tc so I'm drawing dead and can fold. If I call and a non club hits on the river I have a tough decision. If I call and a club hits I still have a tough decision if he bets.

Comments appreciated

shemp · #2 07-07-2006, 05:08 AM

I think two pair or a baby flush 3-bets you too often. If I'm going to invest two bets, I'm gonna see the best hand.

Nyquiz · #3 07-07-2006, 06:16 AM

I think the only hand that you slow down at this point might be two pair, and even then I think I 3-bet with 2 pair. You raised the first bettor in the pot as an isolation move, probably wouldn't do that with a flush draw, so I'd be reasonably certain you don't have a flush. You might slow down my A4o but i think I 3 pop with A9 or better. And i definatly 3 pop with any flush.

surfdoc · #4 07-07-2006, 06:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the only hand that you slow down at this point might be two pair, and even then I think I 3-bet with 2 pair. You raised the first bettor in the pot as an isolation move, probably wouldn't do that with a flush draw, so I'd be reasonably certain you don't have a flush. You might slow down my A4o but i think I 3 pop with A9 or better. And i definatly 3 pop with any flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

These players don't think like you do.

Nyquiz · #5 07-07-2006, 08:00 AM

I was only adding to shemp's post about getting 3-bet with too many hands on the turn to make a raise profitable. You could get 3 bet with a hand like 78c and you really can't call even though you have outs. I really don't think you can call or raise here without some kind of read, too many times you're just giving money away.

ssmallz · #6 07-07-2006, 02:17 PM

To further a point surfdoc was making, most of these players read the 3 flush on the board and will get scared to 3 bet 2 pair. The guy I made this move on was not one of the table lags and definatly not an aggo player. I really didnt think I was likely to get 3 bet on the turn w/out a flush and it was also unlikely that he paired his kicker on the turn.

If it makes any difference, I'd just gotten AA and trip 5s cracked by flushes a few hands earlier so when I raised the flop I said "ok lets see whos got the flush this time". When the 3rd club came he kinda smiled. Not sure what that means but its some extra background info for you guys

Another point to be made is that when I raise the flop, he could believe that I have a flush draw and making a free card play. His turn bet doesn't really mean he's got me beat as he could be doing it b/c he doesn't want to give a free card.

Nyquiz · #7 07-07-2006, 04:39 PM

Pretty important background information. I'm still a bit wary, but the combination of events has given me a bit more confidence in my hand.

Michael Davis · #8 07-07-2006, 04:54 PM

There's no guarantee that your ten of clubs is no good if you get threebet. I agree that in this game you are not getting threebet by a non-flush hand, but there are lots of legitimate flushes he could have that don't beat you, in addition to the any two suited type hand he is somewhat likely to play here.

This is also a clear raise preflop. Most importantly, whenever you play a hand in the cutoff you do better to clear out the button. Also, whenever you have the best ace and are not against a pair bigger than your kicker, it's worth a preflop raise. That's exactly what I think I have when I'm in the cutoff and three guys have just limped to me.

-Michael

ssmallz · #9 07-07-2006, 05:13 PM

hmm, pf raise is insteresting. Suited I def agree but unsuited? Don't you worry about bloating the pot w/a marginal hand? by not raise pf I can pop an A high flop which is great b/c 1) I likely have the best hand w/a bigger equity edge 2) If I get bet into directly on my right I can really clear the field giving me a better chance to win w/a hand like TP. When you raise pf it just gets checked to you on the flop so often giving you little in the way of hand protection

Nyquiz · #10 07-08-2006, 12:50 AM

I'd vary my play on a PF raise with that hand in that position, I'd be more inclined to just limp w/ ATs than ATo though. I think you decision has to rest with the button and the blinds. You said they were passive, tight or loose passive? If its tight passive then you can raise here and be fairly sure they will fold more marginal hands. This would leave it at 4 way action to the flop instead of possibly 7 way action with ATo.