How high a 6-max VPIP is sustainable for a winner?

teddyFBI · #1 07-05-2006, 05:38 PM

We've had this discussion before, but i thought it would be interesting to revisit it.

At a 6-max table, how high a VPIP do you think is possible for a winning player to sustain and still eek out +EV.

What prompted me to want to revisit this Q is that I've been playing with a 50/100 6-max LAG whose stats are 49/28 who I beat up on pretty regularly, but is actually a relatively big winner in my PT DB over 20K hands. That plus he plays (from what I've seen) at least 7 or 8 hours a day, and in chat has told me that he plays full-time, which I believe, simply given how much I've seen him play.

20K hands isn't that big a sample, and I don't care to discuss how likely it is that this guy actually is a long-term winner, but it did get me thinking, just theoretically: how high a VPIP is sustainable at a 6-person table while still remaining a winner?

I play around 31/21, and I would imagine that I've seen some people play as much as 35/25 and seem to beat the games pretty regularly. Intuitively, I doubt anybody could sustain 40 VPIP and still win, but that's not based on any #s, just my intuition.

Of course it all depends on the opponents, but imagining a typical Party 6-max table with a couple thinking players, a couple weak-tighties, and one hopeless fish...

Discuss.

kahntrutahn · #2 07-05-2006, 05:57 PM

avg players factors in heavily...

My stats for 6max at 50/100 are below:

Avg Players 3.8
VP$IP 49.02
PFR 33.27

However, at nearly always full 6max games, I've seen a few 40-45 VPIP guys who just played very well postflop from as far as I could tell. They also won... one in particular comes to mind who plays a 42.05 / 32.04 / 4.2avg player game and has done well over the last two years I've played him.

veganmav · #3 07-05-2006, 05:58 PM

I think over 40 is pretty easily doable.
Just add a bunch of blind defence that are barely slightly -ev, and the ev is made up by people thinkin you are a fish, and disguising your hands.

jason_t · #4 07-05-2006, 06:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think over 40 is pretty easily doable.
Just add a bunch of blind defence that are barely slightly -ev, and the ev is made up by people thinkin you are a fish, and disguising your hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

To go from 30/20 to 40/xx just by defending your blinds more with barely -EV hands would be nearly impossible.

Stinkybeaver · #5 07-05-2006, 06:16 PM

Factor in a higer steal percent say 40%-50% and you are playing 40%+ of your hands.

teddyFBI · #6 07-05-2006, 06:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
avg players factors in heavily...

My stats for 6max at 50/100 are below:

Avg Players 3.8
VP$IP 49.02
PFR 33.27

However, at nearly always full 6max games, I've seen a few 40-45 VPIP guys who just played very well postflop from as far as I could tell. They also won... one in particular comes to mind who plays a 42.05 / 32.04 / 4.2avg player game and has done well over the last two years I've played him.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I specified in my OP full 6-person tables (or maybe i forgot to write 'full', i forget)...but obviously a 3-person table VPIP is significantly different than 6. The LAG i referenced in my OP was 48VPIP even when i filtered for only 5-6 players / hand.

veganmav · #7 07-05-2006, 06:44 PM

well yeah obv you steal more, you raise 22+ utg, you raise a little looser, you float more, whatever.

I think +40 is pretty doable, for +EV.

who dares me?

Kyle · #8 07-05-2006, 06:49 PM

I do. If filtered for 5-6 handed.

Some hands just are not going to be profitable OOP no matter how well you play.

However it would be interesting to see if anyone has a winner with a high VPIP with a significant sample. Anyone?

Alex/Mugaaz · #9 07-06-2006, 02:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think over 40 is pretty easily doable.
Just add a bunch of blind defence that are barely slightly -ev, and the ev is made up by people thinkin you are a fish, and disguising your hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

To go from 30/20 to 40/xx just by defending your blinds more with barely -EV hands would be nearly impossible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just add opening OTB 100% of the time and you're there or close!

MATT111 · #10 07-06-2006, 06:42 AM

I am sure it has been discussed several times - but anyway.
How mamy hands should a very good postflop player with good table selection play preflop in the mid-stakes?

It seems to be generally agreed that if he plays less than 29 or 30% of his hands he gives up value.
For such a player - would he be better off playin 31?,32?,33, ..., 40% of his hands?