Sorta deep, 1 pair, no kicker, reraised pot. All in?

[HEK]

Button is good TAG who reraises pre sorta often. I've seen him reraise UTG retard's miniraise before. So he could have a wide range. He's likely trying to isolate. SB is also a good TAG but his name is new to me. I don't think I've played with him before but at this table we've been sparring back n forth frequently (but not crazy) in small/medium pots. I've raised his cbets twice in battle of blinds and c/r'd him once. All of which I took down. I suspect he is better than the hands we've played as I think he just keeps missing flops vs me. So his read on me is likely tag but overaggressive and he can think that I will make the following move with many hands including air.

I know everyone here folds preflop. I KNOW! So don't go there cuz i know it's bad since UTG could be trapping and shove and then I'm stuck 180 in the middle w/no flop seen and all that jazz. That and I may also get caught in a big pot with just top pair, no kicker and out of position [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">SB ($3886)</font>
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($6263.64)</font>
UTG ($1514)
MP ($269)
CO ($4240)
Button ($1970)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $40</font>, MP calls $40, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $180</font>, SB (poster) calls $170, Hero calls $160, UTG calls $140, MP folds.

Flop: ($760) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $75</font>, Button calls $75, SB calls $75, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $700</font>

What do I do here? Is checking good or bad? I didn't wanna lead out because let's say I lead for $450 or $500 and get a caller. I'm gonna be OOP on a drawy board in a big pot and it's gonna be really really tough to play the hand from that point on. So I checked looking for more info from everyone else. I figured that if UTG or Button have anything at all here, they'll show some strength and I'll be gone. BUT they don't so I checkraise and...

UTG folds, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $2000</font>

Is this an easy fold/all in? Because I struggled with it until I was down to like 2 seconds to act. Can I really go all in with just TP/NK here?

[superbrawl]

call and hope to improve......catch top two and lose to 888

[HEK]

[ QUOTE ]
call and hope to improve

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm no. Calling is worse than bad. Notice I didn't give it as an option in the poll?

[MDMA]

[ QUOTE ]
That and I may also get caught in a big pot with just top pair, no kicker and out of position

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you nailed that one pretty well here. Yes, you should definately check on the flop. As for this bet, by raising you're effectively making your hand a bluff pretty much. I would actually just cold call that $75 closing the action, or raise a smaller amount than you did.

I think sb has a big hand here which he played retardedly by just cold-calling those first 75, I think he got greedy and now got exactly what he wanted.

I fold very quick, but I'd also raise much less (and still fold/shutdown if called pretty much), or just cold-call those $75 (prob what I like best).

But seriously, man, do NOT put yourself into this position in the first place. Yeah, you were obviously aware of this (at least when writing this), but this is the bitter reality of why you just don't put yourself in the position in the first place. I don't think there is a good answer here, but if I got into this mess, I would seriously consider only calling those $75.

As played, I instafold and bash my head over raising 700 and then folding. Yeah, you did a mistake for $180; that doesn't mean you have to make it worse by losing $3.8k after doing the first mistake.

[HEK]

MDMA,

You do make excellent points especially about preflop. As much as I hate empiremaker he once told me I love to get myself into tough spots.

But...

You really don't think a good player would have led out or c/r'd that flop? You really don't think these are his toughts:

"Hey, only $75 to me and I'm getting odds to draw to my flush, I'll call. No need to bet/semibluff into 4 players when getting such great odds. (now I c/r to $700)UMMMM HEK wtf? You've been betting and raising the whole time I've been here and you can't always have a set. Your c/r reeks of a steal after we've all shown weakness. And I know you're capable of it. I'll repop you with my nut flush draw and you will fold your air/weak hand."

That was my read. But I didn't know if I should be trusting it.

[MDMA]

Sure, that might be the case, but you were the only one who hadn't called/reacted to that $75 bet before, which means theres nothing telling him that YOU don't have a big hand, sure you might be putting on a move against 3 players, but I don't think thats terribly likely for him to believe.

I misread a bit and somehow thought he called the $75 before button acting on the flop (that's what triggered my idea of him getting greedy, e.g waiting for button make his big raise and then hoping he would trap somebody, or at least not scare button out of the pot by raising himself.) His line doesn't make sense for a big hand at all now when I re-read, but still, are you ready to gamble 3800 on a hunch that he would never ever do something silly like calling here w/ a big hand. I mean if he has what you suggested in your lil example, a NFD, he'll be a 45% dog at most, and in all other cases you are crushed. I wouldn't make my $180 mistake into one that could cost $3.8 when the only hand I actually beat is pretty much a coinflip against me anyway, and all the rest (unlikely or not), has me completely crushed.

I think your read is probably quite often correct (I would be thinking in these lines as well if I were you), I just wouldn't be prepared to throw in 200bbs when even in the perfect scenario I'm a 55% favourite at best, and our read wouldn't have to be off very often to make this ev- because of this.

[cgrohman]

I think I find a quick fold here. I don't mind the check-raise on the flop, but I agree with MDMA that it was to large. It looks desperately like you are trying to protect a hand. When I make a raise into a field like this with less than premium value, I always ask myself, how much would I raise if I had a set?

Given the size of the raise, it really might might be a re-steal by the SB. However, it would take some kind of sac to come back over the top in this situation without a hand that is beating yours. I agree, with MDMA, probably a strong hand trying to trap.

[HEK]

I keep coming back to the fact that he's a good player and how unlikely it is that a good player would make this move with a set, 2 pair, overpair, 1 pair.

[HEK]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a 55% favourite at best, and our read wouldn't have to be off very often to make this ev- because of this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just reread this part. Perfectly put.

[luckychewy]

[ QUOTE ]
I keep coming back to the fact that he's a good player and how unlikely it is that a good player would make this move with a set, 2 pair, overpair, 1 pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
"Hey, only $75 to me and I'm getting odds to draw to my flush, I'll call. No need to bet/semibluff into 4 players when getting such great odds. (now I c/r to $700)UMMMM HEK wtf? You've been betting and raising the whole time I've been here and you can't always have a set. Your c/r reeks of a steal after we've all shown weakness. And I know you're capable of it. I'll repop you with my nut flush draw and you will fold your air/weak hand."

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this possible?...

"I should probably raise with a set here to protect against the field but it will also be very hard to put me on one by playing it this way and just calling. There is always the chance I get a raise from HEK and get to re-raise with a very disguised hand. He might put me on a re-steal and move in on me with as little as 1 pair or worse even."