Need help critcizing bad advice

[boc4life]

I post on another small poker forum pretty frequently, only lurk on here, mostly because on the other board, I'm relatively an expert, while here, I still have plenty to learn.

In any case, a new guy has recently started posting on this other board, and appears to have a real problem with me, and he has a few supporters on the site who believe he really knows what he's talking about. But he's giving awful and terrible advice, so I need some people here to help me flame him, because it seems that some people are actually going to take his advice seriously


A person recently posted a "bad beat" story about moving all in preflop in early position with AK, and getting called by a guy who had A6s, who apparently thought the AK was "making a move on him". The bigshot posted a reply criticizing the player for moving all in preflop with AK, the rest of the exchange follows:


(As an aside, should I even care? Is it worth my time to even dispute this garbage?)


Originally posted by boc4life
You know...Not knowing the sizes of the stacks, the blinds, or anything else....It makes it pretty tough to criticize someone for going all in preflop with AK

Considering that he got all his chips in as an almost 3-1 favorite, I really fail to see what the problem with his play is? What more can you ask for?




Wrong again my young (I just got my masters degree in poker) friend.


No need to know that information when you take all of the possibilities into consideration. I'll just assume you're referring to him being the short stack and you're suggesting that he is deciding to get all of his chips in the pot when he thinks he's got the best hand he might get before blinding out. See if this makes any sense to you?

So he's the short stack in early position and looks down at AK. Why not just call with intentions of calling all-in if necessary. There's a good chance that he can see the flop cheap and if he totally misses still has the option of folding to live and fight another day.

If he's not the short stack, but in the mix or even the big stack. Again, why gamble the unknown in early position. He either wins the blinds that again doesn't do much to improve his stack rankings or he runs into a dominating hand. Any other scenario is pure gamble.

The point is this; If he goes all-in now his results most likely fall into two scenarios. Everyone folds and he wins the blinds which doesn't really help his situation, or he runs into someone down the line with a better hand and he loses.

In the scenario he presented he got called by a weaker hand, but that is irrelavent.

In any event what you're suggesting is that he should gamble that he has the best hand before he has any information about the other players hands and that's not the gamble that poker is all about. There is no possible way of knowing that a drawing hand is the best hand.

There should be only one reason to raise ALL-IN preflop in early position. IF YOU HAVE A HAND THAT CAN WIN WITHOUT IMPPROVING.

I see players risking everything on AK more and more these days. How much sense does it make? AK wins if A or K flops. Consider the outs before defending AK. Outside of the long odds of making a straight or better, you're looking to hit the high pair which means there are 6 cards in the deck that improve your AK.

6
6
6
6

Try to remember that. There are only 6 cards left in the deck that can help AK beat a caller that holds 22.


What he should be doing is studying his own game for leaks and not taking replies like yours into consideration. Your suggesting that he got all his chips in when he was a 3 to 1 favorite is hindsight and something he could not have known at the time. What he should be considering is his own statement that he did this 3 times previously and lost all 3 times. Learning by your own mistakes is the only way to improve your own game.

[KneeCo]

[ QUOTE ]

I post on another small poker forum pretty frequently, only lurk on here, mostly because on the other board, I'm relatively an expert, while here, I still have plenty to learn.


[/ QUOTE ]

and you think this is a good argument for posting there??

[hencole]

[ QUOTE ]
There should be only one reason to raise ALL-IN preflop in early position. IF YOU HAVE A HAND THAT CAN WIN WITHOUT IMPPROVING.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah so no one calls your aces and you just take down the blinds. Good advice. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

It just sounds to me that the guy doesn't understand short stack play and the value of winning the blinds uncontested, he doesn't understand the liekly hood of being called by a weaker Ace, and he read in a book that lots of players go broke with AK (they do, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't ever go all in with AK).
However without knowing the stack sizes I can't really tell whether the play you are discussing was good or not.

[ QUOTE ]
So he's the short stack in early position and looks down at AK. Why not just call with intentions of calling all-in if necessary. There's a good chance that he can see the flop cheap and if he totally misses still has the option of folding to live and fight another day.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is horrible advice. He will miss the flop more times than he hits. The guy has already made it clear that AK is a drawing hand, so why would he not want to see all 5 cards which going all in gives you.

[boc4life]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I post on another small poker forum pretty frequently, only lurk on here, mostly because on the other board, I'm relatively an expert, while here, I still have plenty to learn.


[/ QUOTE ]

and you think this is a good argument for posting there??

[/ QUOTE ]

While the advice I read on twoplustwo is certainly extremely valuable...By being the most knowledgeable poster on this other forum allows me to practice thinking for myself, formulating my own strategy, and giving advice. Someday I hope to be able to have that kind of status on a board like this, but for now, I'll continue like this

[EnderIII]

One thing that immediately jumped out is the silly notion that AK needs to improve to win. In the example you gave, it most certainly does not need to improve. Just because it needs to pair up to beat pocket pairs, does not mean it needs to improve to beat any other hand.

Best of luck in your battle for control of the forum.

[bweiser8311962]

[ QUOTE ]
Try to remember that. There are only 6 cards left in the deck that can help AK beat a caller that holds 22.



[/ QUOTE ]

God I hate that thinking. No, there are not ONLY 6 cards that can come to improve AK against 22 ... How about 4 queens come? AK wins. The board double pairs? AK wins. You hit a straight. AK wins. You make a flush. AK wins. And so on. God I hate people who think they know it all.

[nath]

So this guy is an idiot. Um... I don't know what to tell you. I'm one of those people who, verbose as I may be, would prefer to let results speak for themselves.
To hell with status... poker is and always has been about winning the money. If people want to take heart in what this guy says, tell them best of luck and you hope to see them at the tables.
Giving advice is nice, but pearls before swine and all that [censored].

[zoobird]

That makes sense if your goal if to feel good about yourself and gain respect. If your goal is to learn to play winning poker, post here. You'll sometimes get flamed for posting something dumb(as I have by at least 5 or 6 respected posters), but who cares...you've got a chance to learn from hundreds of pro and 'semi-pro' players - take it.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
In any case, a new guy has recently started posting on this other board, and appears to have a real problem with me, and he has a few supporters on the site who believe he really knows what he's talking about. But he's giving awful and terrible advice, so I need some people here to help me flame him, because it seems that some people are actually going to take his advice seriously

[/ QUOTE ]

Re-read this paragraph.

This is an excellent reason to leave him alone, and hope he gains a following of thousands.

Do you see why?

Regards,
Woodguy

[LearnedfromTV]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In any case, a new guy has recently started posting on this other board, and appears to have a real problem with me, and he has a few supporters on the site who believe he really knows what he's talking about. But he's giving awful and terrible advice, so I need some people here to help me flame him, because it seems that some people are actually going to take his advice seriously

[/ QUOTE ]

Re-read this paragraph.

This is an excellent reason to leave him alone, and hope he gains a following of thousands.

Do you see why?

Regards,
Woodguy

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why the quality of the games doesn't suffer from the proliferation of books and "expert" discussion of poker concepts on TV. It is so easy to think you know what you're doing, sound like you know what you're doing, and be completely wrong. Here the guy gets a couple things right (AK has to improve to beat a pair, don't be results oriented when A6 calls your allin) but doesn't do a proper weighing of the possibilities and outcomes. He then justifies his position with "evidence" that is true but which doesn't support his point when looked at properly. The flaw is in the structure of his argument, and that type of flaw is so hard to identify, especially for the uninitiated. The TV announcers do this all the time when they evaluate a player's action based on knowledge of his hand versus his opponent's actual hand rather than versus the action he's faced.

There's nothing better for poker's long-term health than convincing, wrong loudmouths. The fact that good poker is often counterintuitive and that key concepts are so easy to misunderstand guarantees there will always be a supply of people who think they get it and don't and that most of them will say enough things that are right or sound right that people will fail to see the flaws in their argument.

It's like blackjack for the casinos. They love the stories of card counters breaking Vegas, because it encourages people to think they can beat the game and 99% of the people who try can't.