1st 20/40 game hand #2 - Turn actions?

[TheStandman]

There are pros and cons to your game.

If you play this way you are hard to read for other 20-40 players that's for sure. (calling A9s on the button for a raise). When I play online, short handed, I would also call with A9s on the button, but not in a full ring game.

[Tybo]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks good comments - I bet and be folded. I guess AK or AQ no spade. I knew that this was a marginal call and unless I hit a monster flop I was out of there. I would rather have A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] than AKo or AQo in this spot -with KK, QQ I 3-bet P-Flop and fold the flop.

This hand if I missed my flush draw I fold all flops except 99x and A9x. I would lose to AJ and AA.

I had A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the BTN, preflop action limp, raise and I folded in a flash - flop was A9A - raiser had KK. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Yes, you know by now that the preflop call was bad. On the flop, I believe AKo or AQo are still favorites over your hand. Do three bet those mentioned hands preflop. However, and it is read dependent, you can't just always fold for one bet when an overcard hits on the flop. Your 3betting range is a too narrow. Players will just bet out knowing you will fold unless you flopped a set here.

"This hand if I missed my flush draw I fold all flops except 99x and A9x"

I'm a little confused by what you said here. Are you going for a flush draw before the flop? Regardless, you basically said yourself why cold calling a hand like A9 preflop is bad.
For action after the flop, I agree with geormiet. Just bet the turn.

"I had A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the BTN, preflop action limp, raise and I folded in a flash - flop was A9A - raiser had KK. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]"

I noticed the smiley, but do not let things like this influence your future decisions. Try your best to just forget your hand after you fold it. Focus on putting other players on a hand instead of thinking about what hand you would have made.

-- I would like to thank the seasoned posters here for their thought out advice. It is hard for newer posters like threeducks and myself to get such advice sometimes. Too often responses like "your an idiot" are given. All advice is VERY much appreciated.

-Tybo

[threeducks]

Thanks Tybo - I got lucky on this hand. I do not miss the A9o at all. A9s was a bad call that worked out - it made me think more about my game.

[Kaneloc]

First of all I think you are way off on your read of the hand. If this guy is a solid 20 player and with this flop he is most likely not going to just call and go for a cr with AK, JJ, or AA. Your best play was not to play the hand as the flush is the only hand u really want to make. I like the flop raise thats fine. Turn u need to bet. If he has a hand he will cr and u get to put in three bets on the turn. If he has something like KK or QQ with the spade draw he will call. Bet the turn dont try to be fancy.

[d10]

No one here will tell you anything other than to bet this turn.

You should never prefer A9s to AKo or AQo.

People are telling you to move down in limits because you're not going to be a long term winner at any 20/40 game right now (and most likely not any game that's raked). Yes, midstakes games are different from small stakes, and the quickest way to learn how to beat midstakes games would be to continue playing them. However the cheapest way to learn will be to play smaller games. You still need to learn some fundamental concepts which apply to all games, so if the money means anything to you, I highly recommend stepping down in limits, learning those concepts, and then learning the adjustments necessary to beat higher limit games.

[threeducks]

Thanks d10 - advice well taken - y'day and today I went back to 6/12 and 3/6 - I won both times - 60-80 hr. - my average is $14/hr.

One reason that I am trying to improve my game - and I realize that I am not ready - is that the play at the 20/40 up is better than at the lower limits.

Today for instance - I flopped 2 pair from the BB 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (free) and got beat with an inside str8 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the river - no big deal it happens all the time - but at 20/40 the play would have been different - yes the player had 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] MP and limped - at 20/40 the player would have tried to bet me off my hand and he may have still won on the river. It is just different as you know.

The second hand I had AK UTG and raised - I do not think a 20/40 player would call me with KJo? Maybe a bad player would - in any event he flopped 2-pair and I lost. Again it happens at low limits and maybe at higher limits -

heck I made a bad call with A9s and won.

I though about that hand (A9s) and it was a very bad play on my part [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] - any hand he would have had me in trouble. Well dominated. It was a losing play and I was very lucky - even flopping a flush draw did not ensure I was going to win. He could have well had a better ace and my if flush never hit I lose big on a bad hand. It was -EV.

Thanks - I will continue with my low limit and strive to get better.

I do not like the low limit games that much but I am not ready for the middle limit games yet.

[threeducks]

[ QUOTE ]
I probably would've smooth called the flop and raised the turn but, as played, you have to bet the turn.


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I though about that - if I checked the flop and the 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] hit the Turn he most likely would think that I called him with something and might check/fold. With the raise on the flop I gain 1/2 bb when my flush comes in.

If the flush did not hit the Turn he might still check to me and I could take a free card if I wanted to - since he might c/r I would check behind him.

No 9 or [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the river and I think I would have to fold it. We will never know.

If I were in his spot had a set (AA or JJ) I would have 3-bet the flop. I assume that he would as well. After all I am a newbie at the game and he is going to put pressure on me. BTW - this is the same guy that beat me with the 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for 2-pr on the Turn.

[threeducks]

Tybo - [ QUOTE ]
This hand if I missed my flush draw I fold all flops except 99x and A9x"

I'm a little confused by what you said here. Are you going for a flush draw before the flop? Regardless, you basically said yourself why cold calling a hand like A9 preflop is bad.


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The real value of my hand was the flush draw. It is like playing A little suited. No flush draw and you are hard pressed to play the hand.

If on this hand I did not get such a great flop I would have had to put him on a better hand and give it up.

This is why I am not ready for mid-limits yet. I knew at the time it was a bad call and I was taking a chance to get lucky - something that you can not do at 20/40.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess AK or AQ no spade.

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I'm guessing a smaller pair than Aces and he slid one off to try and catch a set and missed. AK is usually paying this off HU if not 3 betting the flop. Same with AQ.

HU it isn't a bad play to check this turn as his range can be much wider than what people seem to be giving him. He'd likely fold many more hands that he'd pay on the river after drawing dead if checked behind. Putting him on a set is limiting his range too much, imo. Sure, it's possible, but not likley. Especially if he isn't 3 betting the flop after betting out. I'm not worried about a set.

Add a player and it's a gravy bet.

On the other side, I'd bet here with many other hands other than a flush. Which can ellicit some calls. If you're afraid of betting just because they'd easily put you on a flush here, you're not betting enough hands here. (more-so in multiway spots)

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This hand if I missed my flush draw I fold all flops except 99x and A9x. I would lose to AJ and AA.

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You'd be nuts to insta-fold when an A flops. You're giving the raiser too narrow of a range. Especially if he's a loose raiser. In fact, there are times when you raise this with an under pair to the A. Which is great when they flash a better pair than yours and fold telling you you had a nice suckout.

Btw...how you're reading situations tells alot about how you play and what you'd bet/raise with given what you're putting your opponents on. I'd say study alot more and learn cheaply. You have a few holes in your thinking.

b

[bernie]

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He's calling or checkraising more often than he is folding.

I see 3 general scenarios:

- he has no draw, no pair. you're probably going to get nothing either way.

- He has a hand like KQ with 1 spade. He's not folding the turn, but he might fold the river. Bet the turn, and if he hits on the river you'll get just as many bets as you would have had you checked behind the turn.

- He has a big hand and wants to checkraise. Checking behind is a disaster.

.

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I don't know. Between 1 and 3, since 2 is a wash, I see more hands played like 1. He could easily have a smaller pair that might pay off on the river. There's not many hands he's going to have a monster to c/r with if he's a typical EP 20-40 raiser.

If he views the OP as a very narrow ranged bettor, as I view him, he isn't going to c/r the turn on him with just a pair.

b