Deep 2/5 Live Hand vs. fslexcduck

[neon]

[ QUOTE ]
where can i find you all playing tuesday night-friday?

[/ QUOTE ]


"LOL."

[VincentVega]

ok Neon, i guess u took it as some sort of challenge?

[FoxwoodsFiend]

[ QUOTE ]
duuur..if you want to make a thin value bet with a single pair in this situation..arent you going to call an all in?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily
[ QUOTE ]
I would not make this bet if i feel shes not capable of bluff raising all in

[/ QUOTE ]

Um...players that don't checkraise the river as a bluff are the best players to value bet thin against on the river. You get to milk their teats for every drop and when they raise you know you're beat so you don't have to make a bad call.

By the way, as for this hand it's an easy river bet and a relatively easy fold as well.

[Jason Strasser (strassa2)]

[ QUOTE ]
neon, why did you bet the river? you obviously were not bluffing - and what worse hand were you expecting a call from?

given that you did bet the river (I would never have done so against the type of opponent you described), I would fold, but it is not that easy of a decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this river bet is incredibly standard.

[El Diablo]

J,

I think the river bet is standard, but I don't make it unless I know what I'm going to do if checkraised.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
J,

I think the river bet is standard, but I don't make it unless I know what I'm going to do if checkraised.

[/ QUOTE ]
thats the diff for me (neon too it seems).. i just bet here and if i get CRed i make a decision...
usually im thinking about it for about a minute before i decide to call/fold (even if im near certain of what im gonna do)...

[Parlay Slow]

Suppose you are a live poker novice and find yourself in this situation, and you decide that you are going to go ahead and call this check-raise. Rather than calling immediately, make sure you really take your time and try to take to commit to memory what your opponent is doing (the way the chips were bet, body stance, mannerisms, chatter, etc). Right or wrong, at least you figured out what all that information means in the future.

This might be exactly what FV was getting at.. just making it obvious.

[Joker757]

Neon,
Man if you want some input you need to include so much more information. You say that she had made a boat with 6 3 os. That doesnt say anymore than she may have been playing pretty loose or that could have come out of the blinds.

Ok lets say for argument since you all were drunk she is playing loose. Is she also playing loose aggressive? which now I see that she was back in the post sorry didnt know what your accronym was. I think something that would help you figure out your position in the hand is to go back through her betting on a couple of her big hands. Does it match up the the current betting patterns or is it completely random. While a good player should and will mix up their betting patterns everyone has a preferred method of playing their hands and you just need to find it. Being drunk doesnt help!

Over all she could have any range of hands from middle pair to nothing given how you describe her play. And I defiently feel that the check on the river was designed to get you to put more money in the pot given your willingness to call two bets prior. So thats something you have to look back on. She played you perfectly given the situation.

How likely is she to bluff reraise the river when you have come along the whole way? She has to figure you for at least a K or depending on how you play may be a pair and the nut draw. I dont know enough to comment.

Although since you ended up firing on the river 900 which was a horrible play given that she's bet at you the whole way down and not very likely to call that much with out a hand better than K's. Your either getting reraised or she's folding. You should have thought what you would do if she check raised the river b4 you made that bet. Another thing you should have asked your self on the turn was if I check and she bets and I call and then she bets the river will I call or if she checks the river will I bet the river and if I do will I get reraised and if I do will I call. If you go through this thinking and answer yes to most of them and you know that she doesnt need a hand to fire a second or third barrell then it may have been more feasible to check raise the turn putting her back on her heels and somewhat defining your hand. If she calls and then checks the river then you simply check behind her and hope you single pair of K's holds up. Not likely after the call of the reraise on the turn but at least you know where you stand somewhat and can play accordingly. You would have stuck in the same amt of money but allowed your self the possibility of winning on the turn if she was bluffing if she reraised then you throw your hand away knowing that you are beat. Next hand!

Hope this help you some

Good luck!

[neon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
J,

I think the river bet is standard, but I don't make it unless I know what I'm going to do if checkraised.

[/ QUOTE ]
thats the diff for me (neon too it seems).. i just bet here and if i get CRed i make a decision...
usually im thinking about it for about a minute before i decide to call/fold (even if im near certain of what im gonna do)...

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually, I agree w/ Diablo in that if I'm betting the river w/ lots of money still behind in a medium-big pot against a tricky, aggro player, I pretty much know what I'm going to do if I get CR'd, barring some sort of live read/physical tell. In this spot, though, I just thought it so unlikely for Vanessa to CR me, given that so many draws were clearly part of my range--particularly 97--in tandem w/ the quickness and size (slight overbet) of my river bet. So I really was totally unprepared for the CR, and said as much as soon as Vanessa announced that she was AI.

Basically, I thought she was CR'ing me w/ 97 or air, since it was so likely that I either had 97 myself (calling in position w/ a straight draw on a two-flushed board to rep the flush if it hits and hopefully get paid if a straight card falls and Vanessa actually has a hand), or some busted draw. I finally concluded that w/ the odds the pot was laying me, if she was value-betting one pair like that, she deserved my money.

So I called. Vanessa had air.

Basically, I think this one is pretty close (the river call), and that it's really a live read-type situation, where whatever my feelings/instincts are during the hand are going to swing a pretty close decision one way or the other for me. But Vanessa wanted me to post the hand so she could be satiated by dozens of "Are you insane? FOLD!" responses, and who am I not to oblige? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Thanks for the responses everyone.

-neon.

[Joker757]

[ QUOTE ]
i think the main question in this hand exists because a) i'm giving him ridiculous odds and theoretically he knows this, so can it really be a bluff? but more importantly, since he bet so goddamned much, wouldn't that make it way less likely that it is a bluff since it is much harder for me to just put him on one pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily. It would depend on what he thinks your capable of and what he is capable of. At the higher limits a good value bet will be a bet that gives sufficient odds to your opponet to call. This accomplishes two things: 1) It will not allow your opponet to distinguish when you are value betting on the river and 2) it will not allow your opponent to distinguish when you are bluffing on the river.

From your stand point this was a great play. His big raise on the river I feel set warning bells off in your head. You have to think what hand could he be over value betting here given the big hand that you represented. And given that he showed absolutely no strength in the entire hand you cant put him on a big hand. Screams bluff to me.

If he makes smaller value bets as mentioned above then I'd be more likely to fold with a single pair but given his raise it was the right play and just hope that if it was a bluff that he recognized the good pot odds and went away The only problem was that he priced himself into the pot and you had to be confident enough in him picking up that he was getting such good odds and if has seen you do that previously and then you turn over the nut hand he makes it harder for him to call you.

Where is I'm calling only b/c I know nothing about you and I prob win the pot but I win in in a different spot so essentially I dont feel it would have come to that.

I hope I was clear little late here. If I wasnt I'm sure I'll HEAR about it!

Good luck!