The Importance of Hole Cards when mining

[firefarter]

Me and a friend argued today how important it is to get the hole cards when you datamine a pokersite.

I think it is very important because of that you can get knowledge what your opponent is betting on and what draws he might bet on.

My friend said it is just about preflop raising and % of seeing flop.

What do you think?

[veganmav]

the thing is, when are you gonna go threw and look at his hands to see what he is checkraising the turn with?

the main point of datamining is stats

[Dazarath]

Most dataminers are datamining so they can get PT stats on players, not so they can go through millions of hand histories to see exactly how they play.

[SamIAm]

Right now, the poll is split 50/50, which is pretty shocking. What do you guys use the hole-cards for? I don't just care about preflop stats; I care about TONS of stats. But none of them need the hole-cards. I care about how often the guy sees the showndown. I care about how often the guy WINS the showdown. But I'm not going to really care what he tends to win the showdown with.

You guys are obviously using the data for different things than I do. What do you do with piles of observed hole-cards?
-Sam

[bziegler2]

I don't think there are any current stats that use the hole cards. But I've always wondered if some new stats that use the hole cards could be useful. One could be average Hand Score when betting flop, turn, or river. A lower than normal avg Hand Score would indicate they bluff more than average.

I'm not sure how long it would take for these stats to converge (1000 hands?). And they are also skewed since its automatically filtered just by hands that get shown down, does this affect it too much?

[veganmav]

[ QUOTE ]
Right now, the poll is split 50/50, which is pretty shocking. What do you guys use the hole-cards for? I don't just care about preflop stats; I care about TONS of stats. But none of them need the hole-cards. I care about how often the guy sees the showndown. I care about how often the guy WINS the showdown. But I'm not going to really care what he tends to win the showdown with.

You guys are obviously using the data for different things than I do. What do you do with piles of observed hole-cards?
-Sam

[/ QUOTE ]


i dont think people actualy go through a nd look very much

i think they mean that it would be useful if they did...

btw, i do go through maybe the 5 players that i play against the most day in and day out, and see how they play so i can adjust... you can find neat things

i found one guy never raises his AK AQ preflop but will limp in with any suited oconnecteer

[Mogobu The Fool]

The cards are useful for people who do actual data mining, but what most people do is just data collection. For developing stats on individuals (data collection), the hole cards are not very useful - you won't accumulate enough of them against any one player to develop strong trends. The exception is, of course, the "regulars" that you have many hands on at your same limits - I mean many tens of thousands of hands. But for people where you have 5 or 10k hands, it's not that useful - 10k hands means 1000 showdowns, which means probably 100 showdowns per position - and remember, people play very different hands in different positions, or play the same hand differently in different positions. 100 card pairings shown is a bit weak to draw any strong conclusions, absent other factors. . . but it's plenty to make more basic assumptions.

Now, if someone were doing actual datamining - that is, mining information out of the data they collecte - the hole card info would be useful. Across that large a sample, you can develop information about the cards various segments of the population generally play, and then you can extrapolate based on classifying new individuals into those segments.

Need another option:

"Isn't even remotely important"

VPIP and PFR tell me all I really need to know about hole cards during the heat of battle.

Aggression/WTSD are the critical stats after that and they don't have anything to do with seeing the hole cards.