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#21
06-19-2006, 02:50 AM
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Re: Cowardice
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry to burst your bubble but that wasn't a "Kerry resolution". Rather, the Republicans pre-empted the Democratic preparations for a resolution demanding a troop pull-out deadline and introduced quickly their own proposal to that effect, but loaded with "patriotic" commentary, stating for example that "the United States will prevail in the global war on terrorism". The proposal also profusely praises U.S. military forces. [/ QUOTE ] You're right in correcting the OP, first off. But why did you put quotes around patriotic when describing what was in proposal? Certainly you would agree that saying we will win the war on terror and praising the military are patriotic actions, right? I would completely agree that dissenting from the war and protesting are just as patriotic, just so you know. 
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#22
06-19-2006, 03:03 AM
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Scoundrels
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The Republicans pre-empted the Democratic preparations ... and introduced quickly their own proposal ... loaded with "patriotic" commentary, stating for example that "the United States will prevail in the global war on terrorism". [/ QUOTE ] Why did you put quotes around patriotic when describing what was in proposal? Certainly you would agree that saying we will win the war on terror and praising the military are patriotic actions, right? [/ QUOTE ]Putting fellow citizens to harm's way for a stupid and immoral reason, which moreover has nothing to do with defending one's country (the core of patriotism), is NOT patriotic in my book. It can only seem so to people who are not looking closely. Hence the quotation marks. We are not judging intentions here but appraising the text itself.
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#23
06-19-2006, 05:10 AM
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Re: Cowardice
What (and why was this 'what' not) was not a Kerry resolution?
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#24
06-19-2006, 05:14 AM
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Re: Scoundrels
I have not studied the war ad nauseum, and am not too opinionated about it. But I am curious how you use the term 'immoral' in your above post? What is your philosophical worldview, Cyrus, and what are the moral implications of it that justify you in deeming US citizens involvement as the result of 'immoral' choices?
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#25
06-19-2006, 08:54 AM
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Re: More moral mokes
Remember the first Gulf War? Probably unnecessary as well, but going in and not finishing the job led to this Iraq war when global politics made it expedient to do so. That's why your poker analogy is innapropriate. One cannot ignore society in our global economy like one can change poker rooms when you don't want to face certain players. Leaving Iraq now without finishing the job will inevitably lead to some sort of future action when global and/or national politics make it expedient to do so. Even the Democrats agreed.
And as for morals, universal objective principles are always practical and the best course of action even if most of the world does not wish to abide by them at any given moment. They are ALWAYS invoked in politics, even though any resulting action tends to be grey rather than the black and white principles they claim to represent (AND assuming the principles are sound to begin with).
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#26
06-19-2006, 01:31 PM
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Re: Scoundrels
[ QUOTE ]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Putting fellow citizens to harm's way for a stupid and immoral reason, which moreover has nothing to do with defending one's country (the core of patriotism), is NOT patriotic in my book. It can only seem so to people who are not looking closely. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not questioning why supporting the war is not patriotic. Forget about what the resolution was about. You said, through quoting patriotic, that praising troops and saying we would wind the war on terror were not patriotic things to say. I don't think you believe that. i think you were implying that supporting the war in iraq is not patriotic, which though I strongly disagree, can be understandable. I'm really just trying to clarify your position on whether praising troops in general and saying we will win the war on terror is patriotic.
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#27
06-19-2006, 03:27 PM
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Black waters
[ QUOTE ]
What is your philosophical worldview, and what are the moral implications of it that justify you in deeming US citizens' involvement as the result of 'immoral' choices? [/ QUOTE ]The immoral choices were the American government's first and foremost. Then come the choices made by the professional soldiers, and those who went on their own free will believing they were doing something worthwhile or defending the U.S., etc. All extremely misguided notions, of course, as the facts show, but somewhat less immoral than the choices of the political leadership. Of course, the private military contractors are at the bottom of the heap of scoundrels. I haven't seen such naked and lawless bloodthirst for the almighty dollar since the days of Mad Mike Hoare.
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#28
06-19-2006, 03:36 PM
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Patsies and patriots
[ QUOTE ]
I'm really just trying to clarify your position on whether praising troops in general and saying we will win the war on terror is patriotic. [/ QUOTE ]If you wanna change the "praising" to "supporting the troops" you just mught have a case, although these are not children in Iraq but grown men who should be able to makde their own decisions. Still, I understand only too well the pull exercised on a soldier by his presence among fellow soldiers. It's the toughest thing to renounce a war in which your fellow soldiers will still be risking their lives long after you are safely home as a conscientious objector. As to claiming that "we will win the war", what is your angle? Are you saying that every American should claim this, in order to boost the troops' morale? And that supporting the opposite would be, thus, unpatriotic? This would make every thread started on 2+2 about the chances of winning in Iraq automatically unpatriotic.
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#29
06-19-2006, 04:08 PM
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Re: Patsies and patriots
[ QUOTE ]
As to claiming that "we will win the war", what is your angle? Are you saying that every American should claim this, in order to boost the troops' morale? And that supporting the opposite would be, thus, unpatriotic? This would make every thread started on 2+2 about the chances of winning in Iraq automatically unpatriotic. [/ QUOTE ] Nice try, but I never said anything like that. I questioned whether you thought saying "we will win the war on terror" is unpatriotic. I never said that if you don't believe in that statement, you are unpatriotic. You're the one who questioned the patriotism of that statement. I was just looking for a clarification.
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#30
06-19-2006, 06:16 PM
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Re: Patsies and patriots
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I'm really just trying to clarify your position on whether praising troops in general and saying we will win the war on terror is patriotic. [/ QUOTE ]If you wanna change the "praising" to "supporting the troops" you just mught have a case, although these are not children in Iraq but grown men who should be able to makde their own decisions. Still, I understand only too well the pull exercised on a soldier by his presence among fellow soldiers. It's the toughest thing to renounce a war in which your fellow soldiers will still be risking their lives long after you are safely home as a conscientious objector. As to claiming that "we will win the war", what is your angle? Are you saying that every American should claim this, in order to boost the troops' morale? And that supporting the opposite would be, thus, unpatriotic? This would make every thread started on 2+2 about the chances of winning in Iraq automatically unpatriotic. [/ QUOTE ] Didnt bother Kerry at all...in fact I believe he planned it before he even "volunteered"
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