15/30 L08, nut low and high on the turn

[applejuicekid]

On the turn I took a long time deciding on whether to 3-bet or just call. I am almost certain that the raiser has A2 as well. He might also have a set or flush draw to go along with it. All 3 of my opponents will go to showdown with very weak holdings. Basically, I can't think of a river card that I would really like besides a non-club king or queen. I eventually decided that I had enough equity in the hand to make it 3 bets. Should I have just called on the turn and see what falls on the river? I highly doubt making it 3 bets will get anyone to fold.

Poker Stars
Limit Omaha Ring game
Limit: $15/$30
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is BB with :2h :6s :7c :ad
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 raises</font>, 3 folds, Hero calls, UTG+1 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 caps</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: :tc :4h :8d (16.67SB, 4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 raises</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: :5c (12.33BB, 4 players)
Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 raises</font>, Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 caps</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

River: :6c (28.33BB, 4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Results:
Final pot: 32.33BB

Sorry, I have been having trouble using the hand converter. Hopefully, it came out ok.

EDIT: Ughh...apparently it didnt. Well my hand is A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

and on the turn the baord reads T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[PorkPieHat]

3 bet the turn, especially if you have the read that you have (if no one's gonna fold, then charge 'em).

[donger]

This looks fine to me. It sounds like you got worse than quartered here, just by the tone of your post. Sh1t happens.

A lot of times, when i'm not sure if jamming was right, i plug the hands into twodimes and see if i had an equity edge on that street.

[Buzz]

Kid - You've given a convincing argument for making it three bets on the turn, but your opponents are going nuts on the betting of this hand. Either they're incompetent or they also have good hands.

<ul type="square">UTG+1 limp raises before the flop, then bets the flop.

MP1 calls a single bet, then a double bet, and finally a cap before the flop, then raises on the flop.

MP3 raises and caps before the flop, then calls a double bet on the flop and raises on the turn.[/list]All of these opponents have raised somewhere along the line, each representing a strong hand!

However, you do have the double nuts on the turn. It won't last without a non-club three or king on the river, but only the ace or deuce of clubs is a total disaster for you on the river. Otherwise, you probably have the nuts for either high or low, and might end up with a winning (or tying) non-nut hand for high even if the river does enable a better high.

Should you make it three bets on the turn? Doing so doesn't seem unreasonable, but I probably wouldn't.

I think roughly one time out of nineteen in a ten handed game, you'll get sixthed for low with A2XY, and roughly one time out of 835, you'll get eighthed for low. With all this action, if these guys hang in there for a double big bet with a cap possibly yet to come, I'd guess this may be that one time in eight hundred, or at least that one time in nineteen - and if not, somebody else has the same nut high as Hero, possibly with a redraw to a flush and/or boat. And if they don't hang in there with you, you've blown away your customers.

The above considered, I'd probably just call the raise, rather than three betting it, but I don't fault the three bet.

Buzz

[applejuicekid]

Thanks for the awesome replies so far. They have been very good and have given me some things to think about.

donger,

I plugged the hand into twodimes, and I had an ev of 0.484 which definitely makes an argument for 3 betting. However, isn't this a bit results oriented? I was lucky no one else had the same high, a set, or a big straight draw. I did plug in a bunch of different scenerios, and couldn't find one where I wasn't atleast 0.250. However, some were just slightly more than 0.250.

Buzz,

Great post! You make many good points. You are also completely right about there being hardly any river cards I like, and the possibility of being up against 3 other A2's. However,

"... but your opponents are going nuts on the betting of this hand. Either they're incompetent or they also have good hands."

I don't want to say incompetent, but not necessarily the strongest players. I'd say these were 3 of the weakest players at the table. MP1 plays almost half of his hands and will go to showdown with two pair. MP3 will pump any hand that he likes. It is conceivable that I'm up against 3 bare A2's. Although, I have to think some live draws must be present such as the flush draw or accidental straight draws. I probably should have included these reads in my OP. However, since I am fairly new to O8, I was more intrested in the concept in general rather than this particular hand. Would it be safe to say against "incompetent" opponents a 3-bet is in order, but against solid players a call is better?

One more thing to note. As I mentioned earlier even against the worst possible hands I was still slightly over 0.250 according to twodimes. Does this mean I should continute to pump the turn? Or are there other factors I haven't considered.

[Fiasco]

Note: I may or may not suck at LO8, im still trying to decide, I have however played at this limit and higher.

I like the way you played this, and really dont like the idea of just calling two bets. My feeling is that you have to get it in when you have a big equity edge, and this qualifies. I think buzz is right, that you could easily be in 1/6th territory here if you lose the high on the river. This doesnt concern me too much. What were UTG+1 and MP1 jamming with on the flop? well, sets and wrap straight draws seem like the most likely candidates. If so you probably ARENT sixthed.

What it comes down to is that I cant imagine a hand that didnt raise me on the turn that I dont want putting more money in the pot. If you were up against a lot of nut lows with club draws and wraps and sets, it would have gotten jammed pretty hard. MP3 probably has A23x, or A2 with clubs, but the other two could have any kind of junk, so get their money in there.

Im not sure what I just said or if it makes any sense, but threebet it.

[applejuicekid]

[ QUOTE ]
MP3 probably has A23x, or A2 with clubs, but the other two could have any kind of junk, so get their money in there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your hand reading skills are amazing. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

He didn't have clubs though.

I ended up getting sixth when a club hit the river. However, after seeing the hands I was up against 3 betting was the right move.