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#22
06-14-2006, 04:00 PM
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Re: What to do in late position after limpers (theory)
[ QUOTE ]
I'm definitely skeptical of the theory that says you should open 3xBB plus 1xBB per limper. I'm not sure what this is based on, other than personal experiences, and in my personal experience I've found 3xBB + 0.5xBB to work better. Until I find a strong way one or another, I'm going to consider this an open argument. [/ QUOTE ] I think the point is to not just keep it 3xBB, but to consider that when limpers are involved in a pot you have to raise more because the pot is larger. [ QUOTE ] I'm not all that comfortable playing KJo in position multiway, even when the opponents haven't shown great strength. [/ QUOTE ] This may be a leak in your game. I am more comfortable playing KJo in position than QQ UTG. If I raise PF, get called by 2 callers, and it's checked to me post flop, well I just got a green light to take the small pot I wanted earlier, except now it's 3x as big!! If I get called UTG w/ QQ and a K or A comes, now what. Play your position more. [ QUOTE ] Raising KJ for 4xBB is -EV. [/ QUOTE ] I think you are going to be hard pressed to prove this. Especially when you say raising 5xBB is +EV. That one BB isn't going to make a -EV move a +EV move in this situation. This is going to be very situational based on hands that your opponents have played before and table dynamics. This is too broad a statement to blanket over all hold 'em and say it is true. I'd say it is very +EV to raise 4xBB when it is folded to you. 
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#23
06-14-2006, 04:17 PM
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Re: What to do in late position after limpers (theory)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I'm not all that comfortable playing KJo in position multiway, even when the opponents haven't shown great strength. [/ QUOTE ] This may be a leak in your game. I am more comfortable playing KJo in position than QQ UTG. If I raise PF, get called by 2 callers, and it's checked to me post flop, well I just got a green light to take the small pot I wanted earlier, except now it's 3x as big!! If I get called UTG w/ QQ and a K or A comes, now what. Play your position more. [/ QUOTE ] This is, of course, quite an oversimplification. Holding KJ on the button, you'll see plenty of action in front of you and holding QQ utg, you'll see plenty of flops without an ace or king. I'm not saying that KJo in position 3way is a horrible spot to be in, and I am comfortable making the c-bet when I see fit, but I wouldn't consider it a great spot by any means. (If I did, I should probably be raising here with 72 also). [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Raising KJ for 4xBB is -EV. [/ QUOTE ] I think you are going to be hard pressed to prove this. Especially when you say raising 5xBB is +EV. That one BB isn't going to make a -EV move a +EV move in this situation. This is going to be very situational based on hands that your opponents have played before and table dynamics. This is too broad a statement to blanket over all hold 'em and say it is true. I'd say it is very +EV to raise 4xBB when it is folded to you. [/ QUOTE ] I was talking specifically about the case where there are two limpers. I don't actually have to show that raising 4xBB is -EV or that 5xBB is +EV. All I have to show is that the EV gained by raising 5xBB (which may be small, big or negative) is less than the EV lost by raising 5xBB instead of 4xBB when I have a stronger hand (which I think is big, but it may actually be small or negative). Here are the two styles I'm contrasting: 1) Raise 5xBB with KJ. Raise 5xBB with KK. 2) Fold KJ. Raise 4xBB with KK. Note that I don't like raising 4xBB in both cases, or raising different amounts in each case.
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#24
06-14-2006, 04:23 PM
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Re: What to do in late position after limpers (theory)
[ QUOTE ]
(If I did, I should probably be raising here with 72 also). [/ QUOTE ] In many circumstances, raising 72 is probably better than folding KJ.
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#25
06-14-2006, 04:36 PM
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Re: What to do in late position after limpers (theory)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] (If I did, I should probably be raising here with 72 also). [/ QUOTE ] In many circumstances, raising 72 is probably better than folding KJ. [/ QUOTE ] A couple questions: Assume you raise 5xBB and get 2 calls. The flop misses you. 1) How often do you think both villains check? 2) Do you c-bet any flop? (Say for instance A98 w/ a 2flush) 3) When you c-bet, how often do you think both villains fold?
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#27
06-14-2006, 04:47 PM
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Re: What to do in late position after limpers (theory)
Moose,
I've tried to make clear how situational these decisions are. Frustrating as it is, the only answer I can give you is "it depends." I think rather than trying to address this as a broad question of theory, you should think more about the important facets of different situations. Think about different types of limpers, the kinds of hands they are limping with, the kinds of hands they are calling with, and their intended post-flop strategy. Then think about what your ideal button raising range would be and what other hands you might add for Shania purposes to counter their strategies. The question of 4 vs. 5 BB's is mostly tangential, IMO, though it can be very important in certain situations.
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#28
06-14-2006, 05:16 PM
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Re: What to do in late position after limpers (theory)
Foucault, I'm not trying to give you a hard time; the reason I asked those questions is that I think you and I have a different perception of likely scenarios and I'm trying to figure out where we differ. Obviously, each hand is highly dependent on all sorts of factors; I'm not trying to get you to say you always play the same way. All I'm trying to do is get a basic understanding of how you imagine a hand being played. I don't think it's utterly unreasonable to assign estimates to certain events unfolding, so as to build a model.
To answer my own questions, I might offer that: 1) How often do you think both villains check? 75-80% 2) Do you c-bet any flop? (Say for instance A98 w/ a 2flush) I'm c-betting many flops, but not all. 3) When you c-bet, how often do you think both villains fold? maybe 60-70%
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#29
06-14-2006, 05:24 PM
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Re: What to do in late position after limpers (theory)
Moose,
I don't know how you're able to arrive at these or any numbers, but if you believe them, then you've found a pretty profitable play to make with two Uno cards.
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#30
06-14-2006, 05:49 PM
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Re: What to do in late position after limpers (theory)
[ QUOTE ]
I don't actually have to show that raising 4xBB is -EV or that 5xBB is +EV. All I have to show is that the EV gained by raising 5xBB (which may be small, big or negative) is less than the EV lost by raising 5xBB instead of 4xBB when I have a stronger hand (which I think is big, but it may actually be small or negative). [/ QUOTE ] THEN SHOW IT! You've posted an idea that many seem to disagree with, and I keep hearing "but if I can show you that (Variable X plugged into to formula Y = proof) then I'm right. Well, until the repliers see your proof their opinion on this situation is unlikely to change. You keep saying math can back you up, but I see no examples.
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