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#31
06-14-2006, 11:48 AM
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Re: buying in short to play at higher levels
[ QUOTE ]
some of the advice in this thread ranges from terrible to flat out wrong.....perhaps Matt, Ed, and I need to address some of these oft-debated ideas in detail in the SSNLHE book..... there is absolutely no inherent disadvantage to having a small stack in a NL cash game.....there are stylistic differences in playing different stack sizes profitably, and depending on table makeup/tendencies and individual skill, it may be MORE profitable to play one stack size over another......however, you are never at a disadvantage purely because of your stack size...... this myth of being "bullied" is just that - a myth....many high stakes NL players learned the game and built their bankrolls by buying in shorter than normal in various games.....I personally have on occasion - for various reasons - purposely bought into games shorter than the average stack because I thought it was a big advantage.... the key is knowing how to play different stack sizes, and why you are playing them...... I'll try to answer a few of the OP's original questions.... [ QUOTE ] Basically, the question is this, assuming a $500 br and a player that is a proven winner at both $25NL and $50NL, which is better? [/ QUOTE ] there is no general "better", it depends on you and the games..... [ QUOTE ] scenario A-Buy in for 100 BBs at $25NL, giving yourself 20 buy ins Scenario B-Buy in for 50 BBs at $50NL, giving yourself still a healthy 20 buy ins. [/ QUOTE ] the good thing is that it sounds like you have a decent bankroll for either situation..... [ QUOTE ] Assuming a winning player, 1)how much edge in PTBBs/100 hands are you giving up by only buying in or 50BBs as opposed to 100? [/ QUOTE ] hard to say exactly without knowing exactly how those specific games play.....you might not be giving up any edge.....you might make more by playing a 50bb stack at a higher limit.....you might make less.... [ QUOTE ] 2)how is variance affected by this? [/ QUOTE ] your variance will probably be higher playing a 50bb stack....you will (hopefully) be playing tighter - so that does help reduce variance - but bottom line is that you will often be getting all the money in on earlier streets in spots where you might be a healthy favorite but people can catch up.....but more variance shouldn't matter to you if your net earn is more - 20 buyins should be enough to handle the swings...... [ QUOTE ] 3)why is the max comonly referred to as the norm buy in online? If it was common for NL games to have no cap, what would it make sense to buy in for (again, assuming a decent edge in that game). In other words where's the cut off point where you decide it's better to buy in for half the BBs at double the stakes? I have a feeling it in large part it has to do with what the others at the table are buying in for. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not exactly sure what your asking here.....I don't know how 100bb's became the norm maximum for online capped-buyin games - personally I think it's arbitrary and stupid.....and deciding what to buy in for in an uncapped game might have something to do with how much others are buying in for, but also what type of players there are and where you perceive your edge to be...... [/ QUOTE ] coltrane, thanks for the response. I am relatively new to NL cash games (former limidonk and snger) but some of the advice from others seemed strange. Particularly the part that it wouldn't be a big deal for a someone to risk 100 bbs if he had 1000 bbs on the table then if he had 100. Apparently some just want to 1up some random guy looking for advice on a internent forum. 
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#32
06-14-2006, 11:52 AM
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Re: buying in short to play at higher levels
[ QUOTE ]
Apparently some just want to 1up some random guy looking for advice on a internent forum. [/ QUOTE ] thats kind of a f-ed up thing to say to a guy who just spend a couple hours discussing this with you. if i was trying to 1 up you i would have made a comment and left it at that. While I greatly respect Mr. Coltrane and eagerly await the new book, I kindly disagree with his comment on the disadvanatges of short stack play, at least at these low limits. If it doesnt allow you to play optimally then its a disadvantage.
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#33
06-14-2006, 11:55 AM
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Re: buying in short to play at higher levels
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Apparently some just want to 1up some random guy looking for advice on a internent forum. [/ QUOTE ] thats kind of a f-ed up thing to say to a guy who just spend a couple hours discussing this with you. if i was trying to 1 up you i would have made a comment and left it at that. While I greatly respect Mr. Coltrane and eagerly await the new book, I kindly disagree with his comment on the disadvanatges of short stack play, at least at these low limits. If it doesnt allow you to play optimally then its a disadvantage. [/ QUOTE ] Why can't you play optimally with a short stack?? The only real argument against a short stack is that it limits the amount of money you can make when you have the best of it.
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#34
06-14-2006, 11:58 AM
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Re: buying in short to play at higher levels
[ QUOTE ]
Why can't you play optimally with a short stack?? The only real argument against a short stack is that it limits the amount of money you can make when you have the best of it. [/ QUOTE ] thats a HUGE disadvantage at NL. why would you ever want to limit the amoutn of money you make? I mean if yor playing so tight with a short stack why not just play that tight with a big stack? it doesnt make any sense to me.
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#35
06-14-2006, 12:00 PM
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Re: buying in short to play at higher levels
[ QUOTE ]
your right. but if hes a thinking player at all you will be at a disadvantage. you wont be able to play draws anymore. you will be laying down TP a lot more often. you will be sitting waiitng for premium hands. Also, he wont be doing it every hand like a maniac. hell wait for weak/tights to raise, and then hell call. and then maybe youll CB. and hell call. And then a scary turn card comes. and hell put you all in and youll know that a turn raise means your beat and youll have to fold. And he can do it riskingy a lot less than you. you wont call with out odds. and he controls the odds. [/ QUOTE ] this is true but it's still the same whether he has 100 bbs or 1000. I wanted to point out this part- [ QUOTE ] And he can do it riskingy a lot less than you. [/ QUOTE ] How? he's pushing all in. He can risk as much as me and no more. He will be risking more then me everytime except the times I call, and in that case he'll be risking the same. [ QUOTE ] its a psychology thing. villians are more willing to gamble when ur facing them with pocket change bets. [/ QUOTE ] That adds to my EV not his, right? If he devalues 100 bbs b/c it's 10% of his stack, shouldn't that be easy to take advantage of?
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#36
06-14-2006, 12:03 PM
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Re: buying in short to play at higher levels
i think its fine to buy in for cheap
i put short stacked villians hands as bad as AQ or 99+ so if u can wait with ur stack to get premium hands then.. thats great. but with a short stack u have keep fillin up to ur half stack. or else hwen you pick up a hand they will either not call you or u wont win as much as u could have
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#37
06-14-2006, 12:07 PM
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Re: buying in short to play at higher levels
it should be but not if hes smart. like i said before. hes not just a maniac pushing everyhand preflop. hes waiting until a point where he can push you off your hand and then hell hell do it because hes not afraid to pull the trigger.
your right about the 1000bb vs 100bb line. its a tournament concept that i confused with topic at hand.
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#38
06-14-2006, 12:11 PM
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Re: buying in short to play at higher levels
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Why can't you play optimally with a short stack?? The only real argument against a short stack is that it limits the amount of money you can make when you have the best of it. [/ QUOTE ] thats a HUGE disadvantage at NL. why would you ever want to limit the amoutn of money you make? I mean if yor playing so tight with a short stack why not just play that tight with a big stack? it doesnt make any sense to me. [/ QUOTE ] Just wanted to point out that I understand this point, what I'm saying is if you are underrolled for buying in full but rolled to buy in for 1/2 (in other words, buying in full would be >5% of your BR, but buying in for 1/2 the max is <5%) is that benificial as opposed to playing a full buy in lower where u buy in for 100 bbs? I know the answer is it depends on the skill of the player to play short stacks or big stacks, and how the competetion is at the two levels. Just looking for some imput.
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#39
06-14-2006, 12:12 PM
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Re: buying in short to play at higher levels
xwillience, I appreciate the kind words....and guys, why such hostility? - we're all here to learn.....
xwillience, here's the point I think you're missing.....say there are two juicy JUICY games - game A and game B....in both games, you'd be the best player - you'd play deepstacked the best, you'd read hands the best, etc....in both games, your advantage increases as you are able to play deeper and deeper stacked, and your earn in terms of bb/100 directly correlates with that...... so hypothetically, you'd make the most possible money by buying in as deep as possible (for both games).....however, game A is smaller stakes than game B, and your current bankroll makes it so that you can afford to buy in to game A full, but only buy in short at game B......BUT, even though your earn would be more if you could afford to buy in full at game B, you still make a lot more money buying in short at game B than buying in full at game A..... why would you want to play game A?.......
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#40
06-14-2006, 12:12 PM
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Re: buying in short to play at higher levels
T&P has a good section on buying in short. To summarize:
- You are not at a disadvantage buying in short. - A fairly unskill player (that knows the concepts of playing short) can have a good win-rate playing short stacks and winning money from good deep stacked players. - Good players don't play short because they can have an even higher win rate playing deep against poor deep players.
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