Slowplaying in 5CD

[Murakawa]

I was wondering about slowplaying in 5CD and how effective it is. My impression is that you should not slowplay, and in fact if you're not raise-opening then you shouldn't be in the pot at all. I find this to be very useful and profitable.

My question though was about pat hands. Sometimes I'll be dealt a straight, I bet, and both blinds fold. The normally profitiable hand is gone. If I check, maybe one of the blinds can muster up trips or 2Pair in the draw, and will call me, sometimes. However, when this happens, sometimes a blind will make a flush, miracle draw or the 1 in 15 boat to 2Pair. This is a BIG money loser.

Should I be raise-opening with pat hands?

The other question is when you have the nuts, let's say Quads. You're dealth quads, and if you bet you could win the blinds or at least slow play down a lot. If you check, someone could draw to a flush or boat, bet you out, and you'd win. In this case, it seems that slow playing won't cost you anything because the odds of someone drawing to higher quads or a straight-flush are really low. However, the blind is just the place to do it.

Any opinions on slowplaying pat hands?

[balsamono]

I almost never slowplay in 5CD. I usually open-raise anyway, so limping would probably look suspicuos. I don't think that many of your opponents are going to pay you off too often after you stand pat in an unraised pot. If you have a really loose opponent, he might call you before the draw anyway with a pair of shorts or something. So unless you have a good reason to believe that your opponents will put you on a bluff, I don't think there's much value to limping in with a pat hand. Perhaps you can occasionally do this with quads and draw one card, but I still think that you get more value if you bet both before and after the draw (unless perhaps you're known as a tight raiser). One play I might consider is to smooth call a raiser with quads or possibly a pat full house if I think this will bring more people in behind me. I'm hoping that they will make second-best hands (straights, flushes or a smaller full house). I don't really think I have been in that situation yet, though. If there's a maniac in the game that raises most of the pots, I might limp in with the intention of reraising when the action gets back to me.

[bigpooch]

If you hold a straight, you shouldn't bother slowplaying
since these hands occasionally lose to a miracle draw from
one of the blinds. Thus, the smallest pat hand you should
consider limping in with is a pat flush. There are also
some weaker hands that you can consider limping in with such
as AAA or KKKAx, but much of this will depend on how the
blinds play; e.g., there is no point EVER limping in if the
BB will defend with ANY pair or ANY draw.

These are the key considerations to think about when you
have a hand you are thinking of limping in with:

1) How strong is your hand (relative to the position you
are opening from)

2) How often will the small blind complete with a weak hand
such as AKxyz, AQxyz or a gutshot

3) How often the big blind will defend with a weak hand

4) How often someone will coldcall with a medium pair or
better or a flush draw

5) Whether you will get action if you limp in as opposed to
when you raise.

6) Whether you hold many key cards in your hand


I actually think that in most situations, you should think
about 2) first because many players will complete (as they
often should) with any pair or even AK. 3) is also quite
important as if you know that the BB will defend with shorts
or a draw, you know you will be getting a full small bet at
least about half the time. On the other hand, when the big
blind is quite decent and won't defend with many hands, 2)
becomes by far the biggest factor. Although it is true that
4) can be a big factor when you are precisely utg and there
are two players behind you that will call raises cold a lot
with weak hands, this situation won't occur very often in
practice.

The ideal kind of trapping hand is quads as you are drawing
one and some players may think you have a busted draw or
may just be curious to look you up. Nevertheless, if you
are utg, you should strongly consider NOT trapping as there
is some chance you will get action from one of your four
opponents and occasionally you will get reraised. On the
other hand, if your hand doesn't have many key cards such
as aces or kings, you should strongly consider limping in
and hope that someone with KK or AA will make it two bets.
Thus, if you held QQQ22 utg, this would be normally a very
good hand to limp in with whereas if you held KKKAA, even
though it is very unlikely to be beat, you may want to just
open raise anyway with this although there is merit to
consider limping if the small blind will often complete.

The idea to limp in is to maximize your postdraw action.
When you have a pat hand, you won't get much action from
anyone unless they have a flush or better. Thus, you may
as well open raise with anything less than an ace-high
flush so when you do open limp, most of the complete hands
that your opponents will make will be second best. Thus, if
you are in the cutoff with a pat full house or better that
doesn't have any key cards (no aces or kings), you should
normally open with a call as that will yield on average a
greater expectation than if you open raised at the typical
table you play at unless the big blind will defend with just
about anything.

On the button, you would rather play all your big hands fast
because from that spot, many of your opponents may suspect
that you are weak or that you are just trying to steal the
blinds on a semibluff or worse. You will find the blinds
will defend with all sorts of hands when you open raise from
the button, so you may as well play all your big hands fast
unless you think that the small blind will often complete
but not call 1.5 small bets cold with many hands.

[stripsqueez]

what hand are you going to limp in with that isnt a monster hand ? - my issue is visualising the positions where its profitable to limp in but not open raise

if you find a big fat slow play and someone hits something that beats it (that wouldnt of played for a raise) always assume your an idiot

when you steal the blinds with quads remember the hands where you stole them with 88 and be happy that you got richer

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Murakawa]

Sound advice, thanks.

[mpanzer]

I don't think it is clever to slowplay in a game whith just two betting rounds. Unless someone else is betting like a maniac all the time and you are 100% sure he will bet against your monster if you check, you are losing money.

But how could you be 100% sure?

[brian1175]

I think slowplaying in 5cd is stupid, usually. After you draw most people put you on a hand. If you stand pat more than likly you will get no action post draw.
So where is the money coming from? Predraw...raise the hell out of it. The only way I might slow play is if say the guy before me raises and i think i can get more money in the pot by just calling and hoping the others to follow will call. Usually it's raise and stand pat and take down the pot.
The reason I dont slow play quads is because you have to draw 1 or 0, either way post draw you wont get much action. They will put usually put you on a straight draw or flush draw if you limp and take 1.

[SoCalPat]

You should never limp with a pat straight or small flush. Too much miracle junk happens to wipe you out. If you raise, get a caller who draws 1 to fours up and fills up to beat your 9-high flush, dems the breaks.

I strongly disagree with some of the remarks here that it's rarely or never good to slowplay with any pat hand. Once you rap pat on the draw, you've killed a lot of action you could've hoped to receive postdraw.

Therefore, you must do what's possible predraw to maximize your hand. By limping, you not only invite other players to draw cheaply to hands that have almost zero chance of overtaking yours, but you're also encourage those holding strong second-best hands to raise.

Not only do you have the chance to make it 3, but lesser players will put you on some sort of play, and they'll STILL call you down post draw.

Obviously, you have to mix up your play somewhat so that when you do limp predraw, you're not telegraphing that you have a monster. I'll let you figure out what strategy to use there.

[bigpooch]

First of all, if you are playing at most tables that are 3-6
or bigger, you probably should simply open raise since most
of the players will be reasonable, and you will often simply
just arouse the suspicion of many of your opponents that you
limped in with a monster. So let's get that out of the way
first; assume you are playing 2-4 or smaller (or a bigger
limit where most of your opponents play as if you were in a
1-2 game!).

At the lower limits, especially at 1-2, you will be MUCH
BETTER OFF limping in from utg and the cutoff with good pat
hands, such as an ace high flush or better AS LONG AS the
big blind does not defend with shorts or hands such as
gutshot draws and cathops. IF the big blind defends with
many hands, you are better off open raising rather than
calling.

If you are able to run a simple Monte Carlo simulation with
reasonable assumptions about how your opponents will play,
it will be clear that much of your extra equity when you
limp in will come from the small blind completing the bet.
Also, if some of your opponents will limp in after you with
hands such as TT, JJ or QQ whereas they would fold if you
open raised, the decision won't even be close! Of course,
even with a hand as big as an ace-high flush, you will
sometimes lose to a miracle draw, but that's more than
compensated by the two points that you mentioned that should
be convincing:

1) Allowing players to enter the pot with virtually no
chance of winning.

2) Reraising players with hands such as KK, AA or two pairs
(NOT trips; if you KNEW someone had trips, you would wish
that you open raised, but it's rare compared to someone
holding KK, AA or two pairs less than kings up), thereby
increasing your +EV before the draw.

Now, if you are beat before the draw, you were losing a
bunch of chips in any case, since the class of pat hands
that you were intending to limp open with are hard to get
away from.

OTHER LIMPING HANDS
-------------------

Therefore, if you do decide to occasionally limp in with a
pat hand such as a good flush or a boat (or even better),
you have to decide on the type of hands that you limp in
with that are NOT that good but worth calling.

If you are utg, and you have a straight flush draw, you may
decide to limp unless you think there is a reasonable chance
you will just win the blinds with a raise. Also, if you
are utg and have a hand such as Ah Qh Jh Jd 2h (a pair with
a flush draw), it's too good to fold and you may not want
to raise (although that may often be the best play) so you
can only call. With a higher pair or lower pair and a good
flush draw, calling will not usually be the best play.

It's true that some one pair hands that are not also an ace
high flush draw are borderline, and some players do limp in
with them but at most tables it's still better adopting a
raise or fold approach WITH THOSE type of hands. For
example, a hand such as AKJJx (utg) is better to open raise
with than to limp in with, although both plays are +EV.

Also, with hands such as AAAxy, and KKKAx, you can open limp
with them, as long as you have some good reasons to do so.
Needless to say, you also prefer to open limp with quads
unless both blinds are going to defend with almost any hand!

[brian1175]

I dont know if I agree with that. I think that the raise is the best way to get money in the pot, once you stand pat all your action will go away. I think the chance of limp reraising might be the option but it depends on your posistion. Obviously the latter then better on both ends, pre and post. However I will try limping with my next couple of pat hands and see how it goes.