Facing a Pat Hand or Straight/Flush Drawing Opponent in 5CD

[Murakawa]

What is the minimum hand to call a pat raise (especially one that limped) in 5 card draw? Let's say you're not overcalling, it's our hero and one other player. My logic would say trips, especially high ones. The idea behind that is that many players will stand pat on 2 pair or low trips if they think they may be beat by higher 2 pair or trips.

On the other hand, many players straight fowardly try to trap you in a check raise with a pat hand. When you don't raise, they just need to bet postdraw.

Also, it is only one big bet to call if they raise and there are no other players in the pot. Sure, they are probably not lying, but some players I have in my notes as "will stand pat to bluff, but sometimes not bluffing". For these players, doesn't it make sense to call with trips or even lower?

I also want to know advice on how to handle calling against one card straight or flush draws who are in an earlier position than you and bet when they make it and when they don't. When should I call if I'm not sure if he's bluffing? This probably needs it's own topic, but I'm asking now.

[Biggle10]

All forms of poker don't have hard rules like 'if you have trips, call'. You'll often hear a 'it depends' which is exactly what I'd tell you here.

[DOMIT]

standard: "it depends"

..ie based on the person, any notes that I have. I might "believe" the person the first time if I don't have any notes on them, but after that, I'll prolly look them up.

As for the 1cards.. there are people that I have notes on that will limp w/ 2pr and bet post. Some of these players I have _not_ seen play draws, so pretty well limits their hands.

If it's a player that I know _will_ play draws, then I use a (convoluted, I'm sure) form of gaming theory, calling about 1/3 the time.

Interested to hear if anyone thinks this is too much/little.. although, I'll prolly get the standard "it depends", eh? -grin-

[DOMIT]

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You'll often hear a 'it depends' which is exactly what I'd tell you here.

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LOL [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I obviously started my replied before I saw ur post.. funny!

[mpanzer]

It depends

[brian1175]

I think alot of it depends on the limit your playing. I play 1-2 limit. At that level I don't call pat hands. I think the chances that they bluff is probably like 1-10. For that I would rather save 9 bets than gain 1. Sometimes it think the best way to make money in draw is by not calling alot...defense..

[SoCalPat]

Sigh ... why couldn't you ask an easy question, such as what to do against a LRR who draws 3? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

As you've already heard, the answer by and large is situational. But I'll pass on to you what I'd do.

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What is the minimum hand to call a pat raise (especially one that limped) in 5 card draw? Let's say you're not overcalling, it's our hero and one other player.

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Anyone who limps and stands pat should be taken very seriously, especially from UTG. Trips are almost always no good here, but if I've got aces or kings, I'll check/call because there are enough people out there who will try and LRR with trips. Then, when they get no action, they'll try and induce a call or a bet with a play that just doesn't add up. Rapping pat does that. By and large, however, you should be folding anything less than a pat hand of your own.

Pat hands which draw my suspicion come from those who just call a raise, or who raise and are reraised without capping. Since you'll be entering an overwhelming majority of pots with a raise, you'll come up against this occassionally. Check/call queens up-trip aces.

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On the other hand, many players straight fowardly try to trap you in a check raise with a pat hand. When you don't raise, they just need to bet postdraw.


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There's nothing straight-forward about trying to trap with a check-raise on a pat hand. If your opponent raps pat and doesn't bet out, check behind unless you're up against someone who consistently trips the light donk-tastic.

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but some players I have in my notes as "will stand pat to bluff, but sometimes not bluffing". For these players, doesn't it make sense to call with trips or even lower?

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If you are up against a player with a known history of bluffing, you have to call down here with any trips. Maybe even as low as queens up. Easy to do when you're heads up, but what if you're confident your opponent is bluffing, and you've got people to act behind you? Can you raise to drive better hands out? It's rare when it comes up, but you have to recognize when such a move is needed.

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I also want to know advice on how to handle calling against one card straight or flush draws who are in an earlier position than you and bet when they make it and when they don't. When should I call if I'm not sure if he's bluffing? This probably needs it's own topic, but I'm asking now.

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I catch most of my bluffs here heads-up. It's very tough to bluff into a field of 3-4 players with a busted draw and get everyone to fold. Someone will improve, or have a high enough pair that they'll want to look you up.

Let's say in a 5-handed game, UTG limps, I've got aces and I raise. The button calls, as do one of the blinds. UTG draws 1, I draw 2 (keeping my king kicker), the button draws 3 and the blind draws 1. You don't improve. Easy fold when UTG bets out (even easier when the blind bets out).

But if your raise drove everyone else out, and you're heads up vs. UTG and he's an unknown player, you need to call him down sooner rather than later, just so you can put your foot down and keep him from running over you with this play.