Defending the Bring-In in Razz

iron81 · #1 03-01-2006, 05:40 PM

I've been playing the high buyin ($50-$200) HORSE SNG's on Full Tilt and this situation comes up frequently. The play in these things is generally weak-tight, but these players aren't idiots.

In a 6 handed game, say I bring it in with (3 4)Q, it folds around to 4th position with a 6 who completes. A jack folds and its up to me. I know that the 6 would make this play regardless of his hole cards because an ante steal here will almost always work. I was wondering whether there is value in fighting back, either by taking one off or by restealing. Of course, if he has good hole cards I'm in a lot of trouble, but he often will have something like (J 9)6 in which case I'm not in bad shape. I should mention here that because the game is weak tight, I don't really risk a 3 bet when I resteal unless the villain has a hand (no paint or pairs), but he will peel one on 3rd if I raise. For discussion purposes, lets say its early in the SNG with 20 BB stacks. Thoughts?

Included below is the hypothetical hand I discussed:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1560021
pokenum -mc 500000 -r 3c 4c qc - jh 9h 6h
Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qc 4c 3c 245980 49.20 253933 50.79 87 0.02 0.492
Jh 9h 6h 253933 50.79 245980 49.20 87 0.02 0.508

Mason Malmuth · #2 03-01-2006, 07:23 PM

Hi Iron:

Probably not. The reason for this is that razz is very much a board game. Since you have a Queen up, it's very clear you have a poor hand. This is unlike stud where you can still have a good hand with a poor upcard.

Best wishes,
Mason

iron81 · #3 03-01-2006, 11:45 PM

Andy B · #4 03-02-2006, 12:53 AM

All of the above. You've got a Queen in the door. Your hand is crap. The other guy wins. Move on. If you had twelve people tell you this instead of just Mason, would you feel better about it? I mean, none of the rest of us can get Mason to respond to one of our posts, and here you come, a relatively new poster who has never posted in the stud forum before, and Mason gives you a reasonably definitive answer to your question. What more do you want?

iron81 · #5 03-02-2006, 01:08 AM

I was going to take his advice, I was just trying say something amusing. I guess I've been spending too much time in BBV.

bender2006 · #6 06-10-2006, 08:52 PM

Here's my main arguments for just folding the Queen and moving on.

1. Even if he is stealing, you might be just a shade under 50% if you both have just 2 card hands. In this spot, you are either close to tied or he's got you smoked.

2. He knows right off the bat your hand sucks. If he does have a 3 card 6 or 7 he's going to bomb you with bets. On 4th, 5th if he catches somewhat decent and you don't improve in a hurry, you may be more apt to lose money. On 4th, if you catch poor, you're almost certanily done with the hand.

3. What are you really gaining. Right at the moment it doesn't look like it's a massive pot, so trying to catch 3 cards of 4 to make your hand are too long odds.

I've seen you before in the games on FTP and you do very very well. Hope that my thoughts help a lil and best of luck man.

Raul Wong · #7 06-10-2006, 10:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I've seen you before in the games on FTP and you do very very well. Hope that my thoughts help a lil and best of luck man.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are the HORSE sngs super soft? Do they go often? How are the Razz cash games? Ive never downloaded FTP before but when I was at my buddies once I opened it on his comp and there was a SICK looking 20-40 razz game going...I need an update please...!

Xellos · #8 06-10-2006, 10:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I've seen you before in the games on FTP and you do very very well. Hope that my thoughts help a lil and best of luck man.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ive never downloaded FTP before but when I was at my buddies once I opened it on his comp and there was a SICK looking 20-40 razz game going.

[/ QUOTE ]

Every time I have ever seen a 15-30 or higher Razz game going it has been extremely good looking. Like a year ago I was a "regular" in the 2-4 and 3-6 Razz games on FTP and the one time I sat in an 8-16 it was probably the softest game in that range I have ever seen online.

SweetLuckyMe · #9 06-12-2006, 08:44 AM

Depends on the player and size of the ante. If he's on the aggro side there's nothing wrong with taking one off in that circumstance. You're likely a 60/40'ish dog, but this is a SNG, not a cash game and developing an image early on is worth something.

bender2006 · #10 06-13-2006, 01:37 PM

I'm not going to lie and act like a superstar. I usually play tournaments and occasional razz cash games, but 1/2 Limit is beatable provided 2 things happen. 1. You keep your cool and 2. You catch your fair share of breaks. I've very rarely stepped it to 2/4 and only once have I gone to 5/10. I don't know how higher cash games work, but the smaller games are winnable. .25/.50 is prolly too low since no one folds and it's a different game than 1/2