Sex, Drugs, and Rock & Roll

[madnak]

On the Hillary Clinton thread, the argument about whether she's "left" or not got me thinking about recent political maneuvers and events that are baffling to me. What I'm talking about is the focus on moral decency, and its enforcement by government.

The political issue I'm most passionate about is civil liberties regarding the activities people are allowed to engage in. The issues that really set me off involve drugs, sex, and expression. But these days, everyone from all sides of the spectrum has lost most of their concern for such liberties. People seem to ignore these issues as if they don't exist. Self-described liberals are pushing hard for a president who believes in an unprecedented movement toward banning violent media, pornography, drugs, gambling, and guns. The so-called conservatives favor a similar platform - just replace guns with homosexuality and you've got it. Both of the major contenders for the next election have built their careers on these issues. And exit polls from the last election indicate that the biggest issue for American voters is "moral values."

My question: What the [censored] is going on?

I don't understand how this has happened. Was it the terrorist attacks? Is it a backlash from 60's culture? Has all the propaganda finally made its mark? What is the psychology of these people who are pushing so hard to stop consenting adults from doing as they like, in the privacy of their own homes? How has information taken so long to disseminate? Why do people still see sex as cheap and dirty, gambling as seedy and desperate, drugs as deadly and addictive, and pornography as warped and unnatural?

I still haven't seen any reason behind any of this. But it's growing and it's stretching right past me, to the point that I don't express my views in public to avoid being seen as dangerous or deranged. The only argument I can pull out of the opposition is that doing immoral things somehow "pollutes" the culture we live in. That argument doesn't seem like a strong enough basis for a movement as widespread as this one. For a long time I've lived under the belief that the people don't want these restrictions, and that empty ideas will die out as people see them for what they are. Now I'm beginning to question those beliefs.

Help me out here. What's happening in society to cause this? Is it a representation of the hopelessness of humanity to escape its normative crutches, or a final effort by the moral authorities to delay the inevitable? Or something else?

[kt421]

I can't tell you what is happening in society to cause this, but I agree with most of your post. The only quibble is that I hate describing the totalitarian mindset underlying most restrictions on non-harmful (to others) adult conduct as "moral" or the activity sought to be controlled (drug use, sex, etc.) as "immoral."

To me, the attempt to restrict human autonomy is immoral, as is continued support for policies (prohibition, anti-gay laws) that harm our society and harm or kill our people.

I have a sense that you might agree, so don't take my comments as suggesting otherwise.

[Copernicus]

[ QUOTE ]
On the Hillary Clinton thread, the argument about whether she's "left" or not got me thinking about recent political maneuvers and events that are baffling to me. What I'm talking about is the focus on moral decency, and its enforcement by government.

The political issue I'm most passionate about is civil liberties regarding the activities people are allowed to engage in. The issues that really set me off involve drugs, sex, and expression. But these days, everyone from all sides of the spectrum has lost most of their concern for such liberties. People seem to ignore these issues as if they don't exist. Self-described liberals are pushing hard for a president who believes in an unprecedented movement toward banning violent media, pornography, drugs, gambling, and guns. The so-called conservatives favor a similar platform - just replace guns with homosexuality and you've got it. Both of the major contenders for the next election have built their careers on these issues. And exit polls from the last election indicate that the biggest issue for American voters is "moral values."

My question: What the [censored] is going on?

I don't understand how this has happened. Was it the terrorist attacks? Is it a backlash from 60's culture? Has all the propaganda finally made its mark? What is the psychology of these people who are pushing so hard to stop consenting adults from doing as they like, in the privacy of their own homes? How has information taken so long to disseminate? Why do people still see sex as cheap and dirty, gambling as seedy and desperate, drugs as deadly and addictive, and pornography as warped and unnatural?

I still haven't seen any reason behind any of this. But it's growing and it's stretching right past me, to the point that I don't express my views in public to avoid being seen as dangerous or deranged. The only argument I can pull out of the opposition is that doing immoral things somehow "pollutes" the culture we live in. That argument doesn't seem like a strong enough basis for a movement as widespread as this one. For a long time I've lived under the belief that the people don't want these restrictions, and that empty ideas will die out as people see them for what they are. Now I'm beginning to question those beliefs.

Help me out here. What's happening in society to cause this? Is it a representation of the hopelessness of humanity to escape its normative crutches, or a final effort by the moral authorities to delay the inevitable? Or something else?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with just about everything except the core premise..that this is something new. The details may change (internet vs live gambling, online porn vs Playboy/Hustler, etc), but there has been no significant change in the desire of those in power to regulate what would seem to be purely personal issues. And to a large extent those positions reflect the positions of their respective constituencies, which is what government is supposed to be doing.

[madnak]

I agree but I'm a moral subjectivist so that colors my view. When I say enforcing morality I mean enforcing what they think is moral, not what actually is.

[madnak]

Maybe the problem I'm having is that as I get older I become more aware of this stuff. I suppose it was probably going on when I was young too, but I was blissfully ignorant. Thanks for the input.

[sam h]

There are a couple major factors here to consider. I think Copernicus got it half right. Its not so much about having politicians who want to regulate moral behavior, as much as having politicians who, being politicians, will pander to public preferences and having a public desire for such restrictions. Yet this public desire is likely not much greater than in the immediate past, and certainly significantly less than the removed past (pre-1960s).

On the other hand, the question is why hasn't this public desire for restricting behavior based on some perceived morality decreased more markedly in the last forty years? Nearly every other rich western country has moved towards greater tolerance and, generally speaking, a more "libertarian" approach to social issues in the last forty years. At the same time, of course, these countries have become remarkably more secular. The United States has also become more tolerant and more liberal on social issues, but to a significantly lesser degree than most of Europe or Canada. Religiosity has also pretty much stayed strong, and this is probably related.

Basically, when compared to countries with similar wealth and cultural legacies, America is just way off the charts as far as religious zealotry and public support for the imposition of morality.

[Andrew Karpinski]

Why is this happening? Because we believe in arbitrary morality, that is, morality without logical basis.

[BluffTHIS!]

The following might have a little to do with all this:

AIDS/STDs
Teen Pregnancies
Drunk Driving
Overdose Deaths
Drug Crime.


The more people who exercise their "rights" to excess, the more restrictions will be sought to be imposed on them. And the idiots in this forum who in the past have maintained that driving while high on pot is less bad than driving drunk, along with other such excuses for excessive behaviour that affects others and not just the person doing it, are what makes lots of people not want to be more tolerant of such behaviour that is mostly conducted in private with only personal negative effects.

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is this happening? Because we believe in arbitrary morality, that is, morality without logical basis.

[/ QUOTE ]

That seems less like an explanation than another way of restating the problem. The question is why religiosity and this culture of moral sentiment are sustained in America but not in Western Europe or Canada, the most comparable countries.

[FlFishOn]

" Is it a backlash from 60's culture?"

I think that's a part of it. That culture was a societal failure. Pick most any metric and you can easily see the damage done. The traditional family is endangered and an awful lot of people think that the family is the center of our cultural success. Few secular young folks agree but many sectarian 20-somethings do get it.

The libertarian idea that the individual can do anything, any perversion, and not harm society is, to many, a fraudulent idea. Therein lies a lot of the backlash.