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#31
05-22-2006, 11:44 AM
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Re: PLO8 calling/re-raising pre flop pot size bet from AA2x
[ QUOTE ]
I think if you look at a guy with a VPIP of 12 and a pfr of .5 there is almnost no way he is raising with AK23, A233, A223, A234, AKK2, AQQ2, A235, As23Qs, As2sJJ. The A23x hand perhaps, but not A2xx. If it's A23x then you aren't in much better shape with your A34x than you are against AA2x anyway. [/ QUOTE ] He probably would have limped or mini raised with these AK23, A233, A223, A234, A235, As23Qs, As2sJJ, A23x. I have about 1500 hands with this guy. He’s one of the tightest players I’ve seen and my notes say to give this guy no action (I think he’s the only player I’ve said that about). I agree with the posters that say I’m probably giving players at the stakes I play to much credit if I put someone on AA2x and it’s unrealistic to put people on that small of a range of hands. But this guy… Kurto, you should get PTO if only to analyze your own play. 
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#33
05-22-2006, 03:46 PM
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Re: PLO8 calling/re-raising pre flop pot size bet from AA2x
I can definitely tell that my understanding of this game needs some work.
Suited A3 with a 4 is A3 blank-blank? The 4 is considered a blank? What's not a blank? I guess another A, a high pair? Is Ray basically saying fold here (in games with decent players) unless you have AA2x, A23x, etc.? I guess blanks to me would be non-wheel cards (4s and 5s given less value of course) or xx being KK and maybe QQ. I actually just re-read his Starting Hands chapter where he states that A34T (suited A) MIGHT be an exception to playing coordinated cards...and he was talking about limit. I'll usually only fold if the pot has been raised (or re-raised) by someone I know to be drum-tight. Has my game sprung another leak? Disclaimer: I can understand getting away from an A3xx hand in PL as opposed to limit though.
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#34
05-22-2006, 04:44 PM
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Re: PLO8 calling/re-raising pre flop pot size bet from AA2x
[ QUOTE ]
Disclaimer: I can understand getting away from an A3xx hand in PL as opposed to limit though. [/ QUOTE ] I believe all the discussion in this thread pertains to PL, not limit. As for the playability of A3xx in PL, it's definitely a playable hand in today's online games, which are the only PLO8 games going as far as I know. This is proven through results over several hundreds of thousands of hands from full ring play at all limits as tracked via PTO. Ray's claim is that if (perhaps when, eventually) the bad players that are keeping us s-LAGs afloat leave the game, we'll have to tighten our starting hand requirements dramatically.
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#35
05-22-2006, 05:00 PM
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Re: PLO8 calling/re-raising pre flop pot size bet from AA2x
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Disclaimer: I can understand getting away from an A3xx hand in PL as opposed to limit though. [/ QUOTE ] I believe all the discussion in this thread pertains to PL, not limit. As for the playability of A3xx in PL, it's definitely a playable hand in today's online games, which are the only PLO8 games going as far as I know. This is proven through results over several hundreds of thousands of hands from full ring play at all limits as tracked via PTO. Ray's claim is that if (perhaps when, eventually) the bad players that are keeping us s-LAGs afloat leave the game, we'll have to tighten our starting hand requirements dramatically. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, this thread does pertain to PL. I was trying to put emphasis on the fact that Ray doesn't see this as that strong a hand even in limit (again, against thinking players). As to my original question, can someone loosely define what you consider an O8 blank? I never thought of a 4 as a blank (unless you're up against the type of player Mr. Zee sees frequently).
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#36
05-22-2006, 05:09 PM
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Re: PLO8 calling/re-raising pre flop pot size bet from AA2x
[ QUOTE ]
As to my original question, can someone loosely define what you consider an O8 blank? I never thought of a 4 as a blank (unless you're up against the type of player Mr. Zee sees frequently). [/ QUOTE ] I would say A3xx without a K or 4. A 5 adds a small amount of playability, but nowhere near as much as a 4. And this category (A3xx without AA, 2, K or 4) is a definite winner at today's games.
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#37
05-23-2006, 12:22 AM
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Re: PLO8 calling/re-raising pre flop pot size bet from AA2x
sorry for the confusion. i didnt mean ace, three, four, was ace, three blank. it isnt. the four is a key card.
in that part of my post i was referring to an earlier statement i made saying ace three blank blank out of position is not generally a playing hand. and i was put to the wall by people claiming it makes them lots of money over hundreds of thousands of hands. i cant dispute their figures so i give them credit. as long as their figures represent what i said and not what they added to the mix. and when some have said the original raiser doesnt have to have AA2. well then that fact would actually make it worse for you to call with limpers behind you. as you wont be able to play the hand as well when the big money comes down.
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#38
05-23-2006, 12:53 AM
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Re: PLO8 calling/re-raising pre flop pot size bet from AA2x
[ QUOTE ]
sorry for the confusion. i didnt mean ace, three, four, was ace, three blank. it isnt. the four is a key card. in that part of my post i was referring to an earlier statement i made saying ace three blank blank out of position is not generally a playing hand. and i was put to the wall by people claiming it makes them lots of money over hundreds of thousands of hands. i cant dispute their figures so i give them credit. as long as their figures represent what i said and not what they added to the mix. and when some have said the original raiser doesnt have to have AA2. well then that fact would actually make it worse for you to call with limpers behind you. as you wont be able to play the hand as well when the big money comes down. [/ QUOTE ] Ray, I agree. Knowing that the guy has AA2x is a benefit to the button holding a34K, especially with all these goddam shortstacks in the game lately lookign to limp=reraise nonstep. Also, Sam Cassell is a little bitch, when you get right down to it.
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#40
05-24-2006, 06:19 AM
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Re: PLO8 calling/re-raising pre flop pot size bet from AA2x
[ QUOTE ]
But the key point IMHO is the three limpers. In a low limit PLO8 game, one pot sized raise in MP and a cold call from the button usuall means all three limpers are calling as well. [/ QUOTE ] I think this is probably the key point in this hand. Tx, I disagree with you about assigning Villain a wider range, if Dis has 1500 hands with the guy and can confidently put him on AA2 then that's good enough for me, but I couldn't agree more about the limpers. With all this money in the pot I think it would be a cardinal sin to fold this on the button. Dis, if this guy is as mossy as you paint him to be then I think you should definitely call even HU considering you have position, because not only can you bet the flops that slap you in the face, but you can also bet the flops that you feel certain he's whiffed. Mr.Zee, I can't see a player whose as tight as these numbers suggest putting up much of a fight if he meets any kind of resistance on a flop he did not hit hard , and since Dis has a fairly specific idea of what a flop would look like that hit Villain's hand I think Dis should at least give himself a chance to outplay the guy.
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