A basics post - classic river val bet or check behind w/ 'good?' river

[Isura]

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Because 23% of the people decided to call a push, whereas 59% would call a half-pot bet.

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And 57% of the people voted to valuebet the river if checked too. Isn't c/r all-in close enough to be optimal then?

Fold/Call/Bet less than

[El Diablo]

aug,durrr:

To be more clear, ASSUMING WE AGREE w/ certain assumptions/statements in my OP and think they are likely enough to mirror the situation in Chaos's hand, AND our hand is close enough to the middle of our range (which could also be straight draws and bigger Aces), one line seemed to stand out. I did not mean to imply that this hand was the same as chaos' hand or advice here directly applied to his.

My point was less that that was the right move in Chaos' hand, because maybe it isn't. It was moreso that I think going through this hand from this perspective as well might give people a little better grounding in coming up w/ a suggestion for chaos and other situations like that.

A big reason I posted this thread was because I felt a number of the responses in that thread (and some other relatively common situations posted recently) just weren't very well thought out and it didn't feel like people went very far at all into putting villains on likely ranges and actions.

[El Diablo]

Isura,

I prob shouldn't have made the comment about that specific line, as it distracted from the main point. Really coming up with an analysis of the best line would of course be more complex, because you'd be doing things like weighting the range of hands villain is pushing when checked to and so forth. In your case, for example, checkraising allin only applies 35% of the time, so then we need to think about how often villain will be pushing or value-betting on the river with weaker/stronger sides of the range before making a determination of check or bet being optimal. As I just mentioned in my last post, inferring an optimal line from this thread is an oversimplification of the situation, but I think a valuable guideline.

[TheWorstPlayer]

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I voted Fold/call/push.

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[LuvDemNutz]

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I voted Fold/call/push.

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[Sunny Mehta]

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On the river if he half pots it he's just taking advantage of a player who has no discipline. If he has a hand he has a hand and whether he bets full pot or half pot he still has proven he has a hand by putting in so much action preflop, flop, turn and then river. It's not just the half pot on the river that proves he has a hand, it's the action on the turn which in a sense he is also putting in on the river, I think this is an important concept that can help people fold in a lot of river situations.

If he checks you probably have best hand and think betting as much as you think will get called is good. Could be a big sized underbet.

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bingo...I am shocked at the number of people who voted that they'd call if the OOP player led for half-pot.....I think in an ideal world, a half-pot bet on this river is a bad idea by either player (though perhaps very slightly less of a bad idea if made by the player with position)....but apparently, the world is farther from ideal than I thought....

[El Diablo]

coltrane,

"but apparently, the world is farther from ideal than I thought.... "

You just learned something for your book, punk. Send me some money.

[Sunny Mehta]

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You just learned something for your book

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you're right...I will now make sure we include the following:

"The 2p2 HSNL players are not as smart or good as they think."

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[El Diablo]

coltrane,

I don't care what you include. Just send me some money.