30/60 i deserve to downswing?

riverspecialist · #1 05-22-2006, 10:24 PM

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $30.
UTG calls, 4 folds, MP3 calls, Hero (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB raises, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, UTG folds, MP3 folds, Hero raises, SB calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

check turn or bet river or everything is peachy?

villan is 17/13/2.6 300 hands

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, MP2 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

I cannot believe i didnt raise the turn. I think i'm just so sick of my semibluffs being fully punished.

I never saw EP. LP is 19/8/2.4

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, CO raises, BB folds, UTG+2 3-bets, Hero folds, CO calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 bets, CO calls.

River: (9.75 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

I think i need to get back to seeing more showdowns. Results asside, is this fold as bad as it seems?

Dov · #2 05-22-2006, 10:40 PM

Hand 1: I play it the same way.

Hand 2: I don't understand why you think raising the turn is a good idea.
What do you think you are ahead of here? Villains flop raise is
either an AT or a KQs type hand.

There is no value in raising the A as a flush draw because you are
HU.

If he has an A in his hand, he just got there and isn't folding it for
one more bet.

I think you are beaten on the river and if you call, it should only be
so that you gain information about this player that you can use
later. If you don't already have that info, now's as good a time as
any.

Hand 3: I would call the turn because of the back door draws. I know that
I am behind at this point, but I would pay one more small bet to see
if any of my back door draws start to materialize.

Obviously the turn and river are calls after that.

Dov

PartyGirlUK · #3 05-22-2006, 11:18 PM

Bet river in hand 1 pls. He raised a bunch o limpers from the sb, he doesnt have a 5, a Jack or a King put in more action, give him a chance to make a heroic call, after all the [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] draw missed......

Dov · #4 05-22-2006, 11:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
give him a chance to make a heroic call, after all the draw missed......

[/ QUOTE ]

When I first read this, I was thinking that any hand that calls this river bet beats us. Now I'm starting to think that he might also call with -

AQ, a small pocket pair, or a J that beats us.

I think he is most likely to have a pair below jacks like 66-88, or AQs.

I guess he could have a better jack - specifically JTs - if he's a little LAGgy.

The more I think about it, the more I like the river bet. He will call with many hands that we can beat and won't raise without having us completely crushed.

Unless you gave him a reason to think that you can fold to a river raise another time...

Thanks Dean.

Dov

gaming_mouse · #5 05-23-2006, 03:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet river in hand 1 pls. He raised a bunch o limpers from the sb, he doesnt have a 5, a Jack or a King put in more action, give him a chance to make a heroic call, after all the [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] draw missed......

[/ QUOTE ]

why can't a better jack have gotten scared of the K?

why can't a K be planning to c/r the river (this is less likely, but still).

i like the way you're thinking, but can you really put him on a pp so solidly?

n1bd · #6 05-23-2006, 06:38 AM

Hero is chopping with the other jacks, except AJ KJ.

baronzeus · #7 05-23-2006, 06:58 AM

bet hand 1, fold to a raise. expect a call from TT-66 every time. hand 2 raise the turn is ok, but as played fold river plz. no way hes bluffing. hand 3, i dunno, whatever, i could go either way. i like never fold it since i have Ad and some retard with K high is 3betting that flop.

golferbrent · #8 05-23-2006, 03:46 PM

Hand 1:

I think you need to bet the river. You should only be scared of a K here as you now chop with all other J's except A-J. The likely hood of him paying off with a hand like 10-10 leans this to a definite b/f line.

Hand 2:

I like a fold on the turn here. As played you need to fold the river. He is not betting a hand that you can beat. Pretty much everything has got there... no way your hand can be good.

Hand 3:

I would definitely not fold on the flop. It is far too likely that someone is going nuts on the flop with a draw of some sort. I would definitely proceed cautiously, but definitely seeing the turn. Once the turn comes then I am definitely seeing the river and calling on the end.

riverspecialist · #9 05-23-2006, 06:29 PM

hand 1. im not good at folding pots to a raise on the river. This is partly because I think my downswing is coming from folding too much more than missing value. But i might be able to force myself to bet and folding to the c/r 50-70% of the time. but at 30/60 i gotta police

hand 2. I have so many partial outs. 9 flush, 3 gutshots, 2 sets. as stated above, i am trying to get more showdowns. I dont know if im being targeted, but i catch so many people getting out of line against me its almost worth it to call down every hand i play (once its heads up). a 2.6 is deffinetly capable of getting out of line and im better off trying to get 2 bets in on the turn than one on the river where i dont have any equity on the losers. I dont know why im arguing though, i dont like how i played it either.

hand 3. yeah, im weak....

joy2mike · #10 05-23-2006, 11:46 PM

My opinions:
Hand 1: Peachy

Hand 2: Against a 17/13 I'm looking up his flop check/raise stats. If this doesn't look like a fetish play for him, I'm done after he raises me flop. If I make it past flop, I don't see how anything but getting to showdown makes sense. Doing the turn raise for free showdown (U/I) doesn't seem to work for me when I'm check/raised river very often. I think his MP2 range is pretty heavily weighted with hands that have you beat if you don't improve (AQ, TT, maybe a little AK thrown in there)... but I couldn't call turn and fold river.

Hand 3: Tough fold, but with that pot a fold has to be correct to the 3 bet on the flop against most opponents every day of the week. I wish I could make TPTK folds like this more often.