PLO8 calling/re-raising pre flop pot size bet from AA2x

[Dismas]

I recently was in a game where I was on the button with Ac 3d 4h Jc. My stack size was higher then full buyin and a rock (VIP of 12 PFA or .5) with a full buyin pots it after 3 players limp. I folded because I felt he had AA2x ~80% of the time and he would not play for the rest of his stack if he missed the flop. Also any flop that hit my hand hard would miss his hand. Additionally I felt if I only called at least one other player would have called also.

Was my play to weak? What other things should I have considered before folding? What conditions need to be met for you to call/re-raise a pre-flop pot size bet from someone you can strongly put on a AA2x hand? What do the stack sizes need to be? What type of mistakes must your opponent need to make? What types of hands do you look for? What types of flops?

I’ve only played ~30,000 hands of PLO8 and all but one or two thousand have been at $25 or $50 buyin. Any advice you can give would be appreciated.

[Jorge10]

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I folded because I felt he had AA2x ~80% of the time and he would not play for the rest of his stack if he missed the flop.

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Unless you can read his mind you dont know this.

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What other things should I have considered before folding?

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The fact that he has to bet almost any flop with his hand. If he doesnt bet and is a rock, then you bet and steal the pot from him.

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What conditions need to be met for you to call/re-raise a pre-flop pot size bet from someone you can strongly put on a AA2x hand?

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This isnt holdem. Unless you have AA2 or AA3, you have no business shoving preflop. You should be taking flops and outplaying people. I take flops when someone raises with anything that I know can hit the flop hard, Kings, Queens, A/2 or A/3 suited, K/Q/J/10, etc. You have to make a judgement call on what to call with.

Cliff Notes: Stop being afraid.

[Ray Zee]

that hand is only worth a limp here on the button. and certainly a fold from a very tight raiser.

[januarymute]

I'd definitely call this raise. A34 with a suited ace to boot is definitely strong enough to play against a certain AA with position.

It'll especially help if you have additional info on the player like whether he gets married to aces postflop or whether he'll let them go to minimal resistance, etc. But I'd get in the habit of playing this hand on the button even for a raise from a tight player.

[TxRedMan]

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that hand is only worth a limp here on the button. and certainly a fold from a very tight raiser.

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Ray,

You're not willing to put in 6% of your stack in a pot that will likely be played multiway when you have position with a suited ace and three wheel cards?

(when i say 6% of your stack I assume everyone has a full buy in, as OP didnt oblige stacksizes in his post)


I think this is a prefect example of a hand that should be played when you are confident that you can make better decisions than your opponents after the flop.

[Phil153]

Tx,

I think the discussion should start from the premise that Ray is right, and progress from there. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I had a look at my stats and while A34x is a highly profitable hand in PLO8 (which I often raise), it's a loser when cold calling, over a significant sample.

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I think this is a prefect example of a hand that should be played when you are confident that you can make better decisions than your opponents after the flop.

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Precisely what flop are you going to be "making better decisions" on against a tight player? How often does said flop occur?

[januarymute]

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I think the discussion should start from the premise that Ray is right, and progress from there. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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Phil, why would you defer to Ray's judgment on this one? I'd want to know whether he's been playing a lot of PLO8 online, because generally these established PLO8 "experts" seem to be a bit out of touch with the game as it's currently played (eg, Badger). I can't find the thread, but Ray previously made a pretty outrageous claim that playing A3xx wouldn't be profitable from OOP in a PLO8 game.

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I had a look at my stats and while A34x is a highly profitable hand in PLO8 (which I often raise), it's a loser when cold calling, over a significant sample.

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I think this is a prefect example of a hand that should be played when you are confident that you can make better decisions than your opponents after the flop.

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Precisely what flop are you going to be "making better decisions" on against a tight player? How often does said flop occur?

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Is there any chance that you may be playing this hand suboptimally postflop? Or that your preflop style will cause your opponents to play differently than they might against other postflop (ie, you may not be able to steal from AAxx postflop in a situation like this because you are LAG pf)?

[TxRedMan]

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Tx,

I think the discussion should start from the premise that Ray is right, and progress from there. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I had a look at my stats and while A34x is a highly profitable hand in PLO8 (which I often raise), it's a loser when cold calling, over a significant sample.

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I think this is a prefect example of a hand that should be played when you are confident that you can make better decisions than your opponents after the flop.

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Precisely what flop are you going to be "making better decisions" on against a tight player? How often does said flop occur?

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Phil,

I never said that I reccomend playing this hand HU against a tight player.

However, in a low limit game with three limpers and a pot sized raise in MP, I can safely assume that if I call on the button that the limpers will generally call, too. In fact, in a low limit game this situation is almost never HU when I cold call on the button.


As for a preferable flop for A 3 4 J ace suited in [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]'s,

any flop with two low cards with one being a deuce is going to be very "preferable" for your hand, especially a flop where that deuce is the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

but my point here is that the initial investment in the pot is minimal in relation to the potential reward.

i've argued this point often in this forum, and i stick by my statement because i have been employing this concept for a long time, over several hundred thousand hands, and have had very pleasing results from doing so.

now, i can understand why some players would be unsuccesful using this stategy, as it is highly post flop-skill dependent.


that being said, i don't see how cold calling A 3 4 J suited ace on the button in a multiway pot for a minimal portion of your stack can be incorrect.


also, and perhaps very importantly, a tight player will not always only raise here with AA2. this seems so have been overlooked and assigned a "always" value in this argument.




-Tex

[Phil153]

I have great respect for Ray's experience and wisdom. He has an incredible amout of experience at this game and poker in general. When he posts something such as this, I generally defer to his judgement.

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Ray previously made a pretty outrageous claim that playing A3xx wouldn't be profitable from OOP in a PLO8 game.

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Wow, I didn't see that comment. A3xx (without a 2,4, AA or KK) is a huge winner for me over 100K hands, and I raise it 80% of the time with no regard to position. This comment is surprising.

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Is there any chance that you may be playing this hand suboptimally postflop?

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Entirely possible. It's one person's data, and should be taken as such. I'm curious as to what results others have though.

[januarymute]

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I have great respect for Ray's experience and wisdom. He has an incredible amout of experience at this game and poker in general. When he posts something such as this, I generally defer to his judgement.


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I agree with the first two sentences completely. Much respect, and his thoughts on metagame and poker in general are much appreciated. However, this is a very specific scenario, and Ray's only previous contribution to discussions involving PLO8 and preflop hand selection specifically that I can remember was clearly wrong for typical online games, in the direction of being drastically too tight. See where I'm going with this...?