Defending a late position raise (LO8)

[Buzz]

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I tend to just sit there and play tight.

[/ QUOTE ]Lemon Peel - Tight is fine, if you are enjoying yourself. There is nothing wrong with tight.

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You mention this is not the optimal strategy in these games.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't think too tight is the optimal way to play in these games. "Too" is the key word.

Note that there's a wide variance in opponent styles and skill levels in these games. I think you do best to adapt to the opponents you're facing. (I realize that's so vague that it sounds trite. Sorry.)

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If this is the case, what other hands are you playing in addition to A2XX A3xx, 4 high cards Ten or higher etc. And 3 high cards with one of them paired.

[/ QUOTE ]Lots of other hands, depending, and maybe not some of those you cite. It's not a cut and dried formula kind of thing.

Ace is a super powerful card in high/low games. Middle cards, even if coordinated, are not generally good in high/low games. Low pairs are not generally good, except as they reduce the chances of an opponent making low. Rainbow hands are poor.

Would I play A234-rainbow? Of course.
Would I play TJQK-rainbow? Probably not.

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I've seen how loose ppeople play, but surely calling for one bet with 5547 one suit can't really be an optimal way of playing these games?

[/ QUOTE ]I agree. I would not generally play 5547. Let me rephrase that: I can't imagine what would posess me to voluntarily play a hand with two fives and a seven. Well.... wait. Double suited A557 for a single bet? Tempting. O.K. I'd probably play that one. I might even raise with it - or maybe not.

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And I usually play in the hawaiian gardens 6/12 and 3/6 kill games.

[/ QUOTE ]I've played in both of those games. I played last Tuesday afternoon for a while at one of the H.G. 3/6 tables. I would have played A557-double-suited from any position in that game. However, in some games I would only play A557-double-suited from late position, or possibly for a half bet from the small blind. In other games I might not play A557-d.s. at all. (I would not play 4557-d.s. or even 2557-d.s., outside my big blind in any L.A. area casino ring-game).

Buzz

[Phat Mack]

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I would have played A557-double-suited from any position in that game.

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Interesting. What are you looking for with this hand: what kind of flop and what kind of situation?

[Buzz]

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What are you looking for with this hand: what kind of flop and what kind of situation?

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Mack – It’s a good and reasonable question. I’ll try to answer it. The game under discussion is a typical loose casino game, with five, six, or seven players typically seeing the flop for one small bet each.

With A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], you’d obviously like to flop a straight flush or quads, but that’s not going to happen very often. Aces full or a wheel would also be nice, but that’s not going to happen very often either. A flopped flush would also be nice, but that’s not going to happen very often either.

Mostly what you’ll be playing after the flop are various draws, a flop with a five, a pair of sevens, a pair of aces, a deuce plus a trey, a deuce plus a four, a trey plus a four, a couple of hearts plus a low draw, three clubs. I think if you add it all together, you can continue after about a fourth of the 17296 possible flops – something in that range - depending on how your opponents play. You need sensitivity.

But mostly you'll be folding after the flop. In the neighborhood of three times out of four, you'll be folding after the flop.

Then after the turn, before the third betting round, you also have to get off the hand as is appropriate. Playing the hand is contingent on not getting trapped. You have to play good poker. (I realize that’s vague). The key is getting off the hand early when it’s going to be a loser. The trick is knowing when it’s going to be a loser. Part of that involves folding after roughly three flops out of four.

In general, the percentage of starting of hands you can successfully play depends on what your opponents generally do after the flop. If six opponents see the flop, four see the turn , three see the river, and two see the showdown, all with no raises, that adds up to 20 small bets. Meanwhile, you’re gone if you don’t like the flop. It’s important that it only costs you one small bet to see if you have a good enough chance to win all or part of those 20 small bets your opponents will collectively contribute.

But let’s say you do like the flop, and go on to win the whole pot one time out of seven. Well, six times you lose your one small bet investment – but the seventh time, you win all those bets invested by your opponents. 20-6 = 14. Your net gain for playing this hand, considered from the point of view of implied pot odds for the one bet investment to see the flop averages two small bets.

All of that is a distortion, of course. You'll win part of the pot much more often than one time out of seven and you won't win the whole pot as often as one time out of seven. Sometimes you’ll have to pay a second small bet to see the turn before realizing it's best for you to get out – and sometimes you’ll get stuck for more. But the idea is to cut your losses as quickly as possible by getting off the hand early when it doesn’t look like a winner. You don’t want to be chasing along after the three out of four flops where the hand is destined to lose. You have to play your cards well. The foregoing also is not considering raises. If you like your chances, maybe you can get in a raise or two. If you’re facing a raise, you take that into consideration.

It’s more complicated than I’ve made it to be here. You’ll win part of the pot more often than you’ll scoop. But bottom line is if you play your cards well, A557-double-suited is a playable starting hand in a typical loosish casino game. That’s because you’re getting enormously favorable implied pot odds to see the flop in games where you have lots of opponents not only seeing the flop, but chasing after the flop with hands they should have folded on or before the flop.

Lemon Peel started this by suggesting 4557 is not playable starting hand. I entirely agree. But it's not necessary for your starting hands to have an ace-deuce or ace-trey or consist of four cards ten and above.

Would I play A557-rainbow? Probably not. (That means "no" unless there would be some special consideration that is not coming to mind as I write this).

Would I play A557-single suited to the ace? Maybe - I rate that one as marginal. (The baby flush possibilities in the double suited version are not worth drawing to, in general, but sometimes you'll make a winning low and the baby flush, especially if back-doored, will turn your hand into a scooper.

Buzz

[Phat Mack]

Thanks for your detailed response, Buzz. You had posted about the playability of AK55ss before, and I'd run some sims on it. Surprising to me that these hands can be profitable, but I have found it to be true.

[Ray Zee]

look at it this way. to call in the bb you are getting 3.5 to 1 odds you will outdraw him on the flop. then have to play out of position the rest of the hand. so figure out what % of hands you would be willing to take 3.5 to 1 on, and play.
it is also based on your opponents playing style and yours as that will determine whether you win a big pot or get bluffed out on the flop. or can steal if you miss.
the game changes dramactically headup or shorthanded in what you need or want to have to play against someone. in a full multiway pot you had better make monsters. in a headup pot much of the time top pair or two pair with any low draw out can be a good hand. or just a high hand.
when the small blind comes you must have something as you will face two hands and always be in the middle getting hammered with the betting. the worst place is to be in the middle of two players.