Non-standard JJ...I get railed in chat

[Mempho]

10/20 Stakes

I'm in the SB...MP1 raises (MP1 PFR is 12%)

I 3-bet in the SB with J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Flop:

T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Villain is agressive in position so I check and call

Turn:

6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I check, MP1 bets, I call

River:

K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check and call


MP1 flips up KJ, I muck but MP1 sees my hand and starts railing on me about what a fish I am. I don't respond except to say "nh."

My thought is that I got him to draw to a 3-outer and make a terrible FTOP error. Is there something I'm missing here?

[PartyGirlUK]

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I got him to draw to a 3-outer

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Is there something I'm missing here?

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[SEABEAST]

He won off queens as well as kings, and he probably would have called along if you led the betting anyway. I think a c-bet flop check raise turn line is better if you want to get funky on this hand.

[Mempho]

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I got him to draw to a 3-outer

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Is there something I'm missing here?

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Yeh...the queens. A mental lapse on my part. With the cards turned up, then I should have check-raised the turn and check-folded the river.

However, since I didn't actually know that, I've got to play against a range that is probably something along the lines of 77-AA, AK-AT, KQ, KJs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs.

[Fianchetto]

Gotta bet that flop with your hand. If he's aggressive give him a chance to raise you, then you 3-bet!

[amulet]

you have one of the top 5 starters. you flop an overpair after 3 betting preflop....if you 3 bet in sb you need to lead with your over pair, or check raise the flop (or the turn). your 3 bet out of position said "i have a big hand." then you have an over pair on the flop (and turn) don't be passive. you let hands like ak, aq (kj here) draw. i know it was only a 3 outer, but if you play aggressively you win this pot.

[mikeyKay]

you need to put a raise or bet in there on the flop or turn, somewhere. villian probably thought you were the weakest, tightest, nittiest, player in the world, and thats why he made fun of you.

-mike

[Mempho]

Sure, it's nonstandard and its an experimental play and it was really meant as just a brief creative metagame-enhancing changeup...but is there any merit to this play in a vaccum?

You must know:

1) He will bet if I check
2) He will raise hands that beat mine, or hands where he has flopped middle pair or better
3) He will probably raise AK here and take a shot on the turn if I call or fold on the turn unimproved if I 3-bet his raise.
4) He will probably fold AQ, AJ, 77, 88 or any hand with 3 or less perceived outs here if I bet the flop.
5) If I show aggression, he'll probably take one off with a perceived 6 outs.
7) Overcard/gutshot combinations will get him to the river.

I realize that bet/3-bet is my standard line here, but if I know he is going to fire a bet (this guy is enough of a donkey that I can 3-bet preflop, check, and still get bets all the way to the river) then I should just check and call. There are a few parts of his range that have me beat and I thereby save money on those few occasions with this line. A lot of his range is in the 6 out category with a few of them being 2 and 3 outers. With so much of his range in this category and knowing that he will fold by the turn unimproved with these hands against aggression (putting probably 2BBs in the pot here....is there any merit to check-calling all the way down. The guy is getting 7.5 to 1 on his flop "call" here but only 4.25 to 1 on his turn "call." Don't I want even a six outer to "call" this turn?

Maybe I got what I deserved here and shouldn't be getting this creative/loony/{insert appropriate adjective}. Any merit playing this way against a positionally aggro donk?

[RED_RAIN]

If he's so agg, bet flop, he will raise, and check/raise turn

He's not folding and you know it, even if you bet/3 bet he is gonna have so many hands that call you down, too bad for King coming.

Plus, if K doesn't come on river, you lost a bet when he calls with AQ, AK etc.

I think checking the flop is pretty bad if you don't put a check/raise in on flop or turn.

[stinkypete]

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but if you play aggressively you win this pot.

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he's not folding 2 overs and a gutshot