Tough fold - QKo midway in the Super

pokerstudAA · #1 05-17-2006, 10:06 AM

This hand has been causing me some trouble.. About 1.5 hours into the Super. Chip counts: Hero (t7840) -- Button (t6410). Villain/button has been fairly active and seems to play well.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO (t8220)
Button (t6410)
SB (t4300)
BB (t7288)
UTG (t7829)
UTG+1 (t5062)
UTG+2 (t6952)
Hero (t7840)
MP2 (t3680)
MP3 (t17895)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises to t900, 3 folds, Button calls t900, 2 folds.

Flop: (t2250) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t1025, Button calls t1025.

Turn: (t4300) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t1380, Button calls t1380.

Do I need to bet more on the turn? Check and Check raise allin? 1380 does not look like it is a big enough bet here. Thoughts?

River: (t7060) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button is allin ($3400) Hero folds.

Just bet big on the river and put him all in? I rivered the straight but it certainly looks like he was chaising the flush. At best I am going to split with a Q. But he might also have hit 2pair or be bluffing. Can I call this river leaving myself crippled with a tiny stack? He might have QJ , AQ, QK, TJ, TT, 99? It could be a desperation move at the pot..Two diamonds?....a well timed bluff?.......help....

Final Pot: t7060

rockin · #2 05-17-2006, 10:13 AM

Both flop and turn bets were awfully small. You raised to 900 preflop and lead out with a 1025 flop bet that is for less than half a pot. On the turn you actually hit your over and made an EVEN weaker bet than your flop bet. River you hit your straight and as you pointed out, this could be any number of hands that you have beat ESPECIALLY since you checked (which I like). I check/call this river all day long. Bad fold.

Nez477 · #3 05-17-2006, 10:15 AM

I really feel that once the turn hits you either have to play for the rest of his chips or check.

Your bet on the turn did two things. It priced him in for ANY draw, and it allowed for him to make a 1/2 sized pot bet on the river and put you to the test.

As played might find a fold in me, but 2:1 he could be reading you as weak and making the play with lots of different holdings. Bet 3000 at the turn and then you'll have about 6 to 1 pot odds and will call any river.

Brad

peterchi · #4 05-17-2006, 10:59 AM

I'm moving in on the turn.

As is, I think the river is still a call. Looks like a chop though...

AceLuby · #5 05-17-2006, 11:08 AM

The pot is so big on the turn that you have to move in or check. I'm moving in and hope that I'm pricing out the draw.

peterchi · #6 05-17-2006, 11:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I really feel that once the turn hits you either have to play for the rest of his chips or check.

[/ QUOTE ]
If we check, what's the plan next, and why did we do that? Do we think we're behind?

woodguy · #7 05-17-2006, 11:19 AM

Bet more on co-ordinated flops.

Bet way more on turn or push (probably best)

When you check the river you may have induced a bluff.

He *may* be drawing to the flush, but there is a very good chance he wants to call you down with one pair, that may have made two pair or a set on the board.

With all the possible hands he has, and you only lose to a flush or higher straight, you cannot fold the river getting 3-1.

Hate to be an ass, but the only street you played correctly was PF.

Regards,
Woodguy

pokerstudAA · #8 05-17-2006, 12:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hate to be an ass, but the only street you played correctly was PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are not being an ass. This is exactly what I need and why I love these forums. I knew this hand sucked ass and was confused with how it went down. That is why I wanted some comments.

When I checked the river I was hoping to induce a bluff. Then I did not have the balls to pick it off.

I guess the turn bet should be more like 3400. Or about 2/3 villians chips.

TaintedRogue · #9 05-17-2006, 01:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet more on co-ordinated flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

He has, at best, 10 outs to make the best hand (3.7:1)and he bet over 1/2 the pot.
Is he going to bet more than that when flops a set or two pair? Yes..........so, are we saying you play this hand like a made hand?

[ QUOTE ]
Bet way more on turn or push (probably best)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is an extremely hard hand to play. Button could have A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].......after all, he is on the button with the hand that has two ways to make the NUTZ preflop [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
When you check the river you may have induced a bluff.

He *may* be drawing to the flush, but there is a very good chance he wants to call you down with one pair, that may have made two pair or a set on the board.

With all the possible hands he has, and you only lose to a flush or higher straight, you cannot fold the river getting 3-1.

Hate to be an ass, but the only street you played correctly was PF.

Regards,
Woodguy

[/ QUOTE ]

woodguy · #10 05-17-2006, 02:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is an extremely hard hand to play. Button could have A 4 .......after all, he is on the button with the hand that has two ways to make the NUTZ preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats exactly why you need to jam the turn. (although he did call off more than 2% of his stack PF) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]

He has, at best, 10 outs to make the best hand (3.7:1)and he bet over 1/2 the pot.
Is he going to bet more than that when flops a set or two pair? Yes..........so, are we saying you play this hand like a made hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I will bet about 3/4 pot - pot on co-ordianted flop and 1/2 pot - check behind the flop on ragged flop with a wide variety of hands, I find this helps me both get paid off and bluff more successfully.

If I really smack a flop or have an overpair I may pot a ragged flop to induce a "[censored]!" raise from my opponent, especially early in tourneys that has a lot of satelitte entries.

With the co oridanted flops like this one a 1/2 pot bet is easily called by a variety of hands since they are almost getting the immediate odds, and surely are getting the implied odds to do so.

A 3/4 pot bet lessens the "loose" calls that you may not want here, and reps a made hand, plus its always what I do on this type of flop whether I open raised w/ 33 or JJ on this board.

Regards,
Woodguy