Two overplayed hands

deagle185 · #1 01-10-2006, 11:53 PM

These are obviously overplayed second-best hands I had today. When do I put the brakes on and when do I drop (or call down)?

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP3 :#A500AF(Villain)/ 3-bets, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, Villain calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, Villain raises, UTG+1 calls, Hero 3-bets, Villain caps, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (18.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, Villain bets $2 (All-In), UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 20.75 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kc As (one pair, aces).
Villain has Qh Qc (three of a kind, queens).
Outcome: Villain wins 20.75 BB. 

I only beat AJ and KK, and neither hand is likely. Should I call the turn raise and check/call river? Or fold to turn raise?

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 :#A500AF(Villain)/ calls, MP1 raises, MP2 calls, 3 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 :#A500AF(Villain)/ calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, Villain checks, MP1 bets, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, Villain calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, Villain calls, MP2 folds.

River: (11.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Villain checks.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has 7h 7d (three of a kind, sevens).
Villain has Qc 6c (flush, queen high).
Outcome: Villain wins 11.50 BB. 

This kind of situation has long been a major chip bleeder in my game. How would you play this postflop? I was going to fold to a turn raise or river bet unimproved.

C-Dog · #2 01-10-2006, 11:58 PM

I dont think Hand 2 is misplayed at all.

Hand 1 is tough, and I been getting killed at it today. It's just hard to fold TPTK to a turn raise, since people raise turns with less that that hand.

The more I play, the more I think that against a standard opponent the turn raise is almost always 2 Pair or better. I am feeling less and less bad about jsut folding TP to a turn raise.

C-Dog

toss · #3 01-11-2006, 12:01 AM

Don't post results in your initial post. Also try to include reads in any.

Hand 1: Cap preflop for value. Your hand will be ahead often unless villain is tight and only usually 3-bets with KK, AA. Postflop depends on reads, but against an unknown 3-betting is probably okay.

Hand 2: Bet out on the flop. Too often they'll get scared of the flushy board and check behind. You don't want the flop to get checked behind. I'd also checkall the turn. Good chance someone flushed given the flop action and you want to draw to your Full House cheaply.

C-Dog · #4 01-11-2006, 12:53 AM

You like 3 betting the turn in Hand 1? That seems like a bad idea to me, but I could be thinking that cause everytime they raise me on the turn my 1 pair is beat.

C-Dog

deagle185 · #5 01-11-2006, 12:59 AM

Yeah I rarely see bluff raise at small stakes limit. UTG+1 was a concern too, so I probably should have dropped after the turn raise

toss · #6 01-11-2006, 12:59 AM

Maybe its wrong for me to assume we're more often good on the turn at 1/2 stakes. Its much more often a calldown at any higher stakes.

C-Dog · #7 01-11-2006, 01:02 AM

I can see a calldown, it's the 3 bet I do not like.

C-Dog

Sarge85 · #8 01-11-2006, 01:18 AM

I don't think either hand was played terrible, but hand two could be played better.

In hand one it can be kind of tricky when a person could be just trying to get All In with their last few chips. So your Villan could just as easily have a weak Ace kicker, as opposed to anything that beats you.

In hand two.

Consider checking the turn. You may induce a bluff. Any flush, small or otherwise will be calling you and/or raising you, and you won't be folding the turn to a raise. If it get's checked through - well maybe you miss a bet, but you don't need to worry about giving free cards since you either all ready beat, and like I said - some one may stab at it.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

restless · #9 01-11-2006, 04:49 AM

Must... Have... Reads...!

Hand #1 could go either way for me. Leading the the turn is not debatable IMO. If Villain is a moron and UTG+1 likes to call I think it is ok to 3-bet the turn. If Villain is sensible I think you are behind but the chance of a split with another AK is pretty big here. It is hard to fold this with odds of 11:1. Without reads I can't fold this either, maybe I just stink in that respect.

I just now notice that he goes all-in on the river which changes things. I will typically always assume villain is making a bad play 25% of the time. He could easily have KK,JJ,AJ,KQ and just be frustrated and decided preflop to go "all-in". This combined with UTG+1 padding the pot if I'm ahead makes me 3-bet this very often. I'd play this the same in this case.

Hand #2, is a tough one. I play it the same up until the river.

EDIT: nope I wouldn't upon closer examination. I'd lead the flop here. I thought you did.

On the river: I'm considering a bet-fold here but in the real world I probably wouldn't. I hate checking the river though because I think it really helps villain to valuebet his hand. Villain will call with some of the hands we beat, but he probably won't bet with them. Lots of things look in favor for a bet-fold, but without a read I think it is FPS to some extent.