slowplaying a set for value OK? - Page 2

VickreyAuction · #11 05-13-2006, 08:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Slowplaying lets fish like me suck out on you [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP2 posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) checks, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, CO folds, Hero calls.

River: (6.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, Hero caps, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

Results in white below: 
MP2 has 9h 9s (three of a kind, nines).
Hero has Tc Jc (straight, king high).
Outcome: Hero wins 14.50 BB. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's another way that slowplaying doesn't work; there's no guarentee that the flop bettor will bet the turn. Especially with the flush draw out there, there's a pretty good chance the bettor is betting the flop with a draw, so the guy with the set should raise the flop to change the draw and to get bets in while he can. Also, if the flop bettor has 2pair, he will likely go to war on that flop, whereas he'll be less likely to 3bet a turn raise.

jhm · #12 05-13-2006, 08:14 PM

I don't mind the check-raise line, but once you've got multiple players raising and calling raises (both are now almost certain to call you), you need to put the hammer down. You only have bottom set. A nice hand but bad things can happen. Win the hand now or make them pay.

milesdyson · #13 05-13-2006, 08:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Slowplaying lets fish like me suck out on you [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP2 posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) checks, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, CO folds, Hero calls.

River: (6.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, Hero caps, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

Results in white below: 
MP2 has 9h 9s (three of a kind, nines).
Hero has Tc Jc (straight, king high).
Outcome: Hero wins 14.50 BB. 

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah because you were going to fold somewhere

why do people always post hands like this to discourage slowplaying?

Stoo_Pot · #14 05-13-2006, 08:45 PM

Ok not the best example, apologies. Do you have any good examples?

milesdyson · #15 05-13-2006, 10:10 PM

the main reason slowplaying is bad is not because it makes you lose hands

the main reason it is bad is because people call too much.

so a good example of why slowplaying is bad would be something along these lines:

you raise AA preflop. one coldcall.

flop A95. you check, he checks behind.
turn T. you bet, he calls.
river 2. you bet, he calls.

he has 44. you missed a flop bet.

johnnytt · #16 05-13-2006, 10:14 PM

I lead flop and 3 bet if possible . . . I dont know how good slowplaying bottom set is.

Webster · #17 05-14-2006, 12:41 AM

Never ever slow play a set - get as many bets in as you can - a set is never ever safe.

milesdyson is right - to many people call (except at Poker Stars) and will pay you off with their middle pair lowe kicker.

OrigamiSensei · #18 05-14-2006, 12:57 AM

The thing I never understand is why people complain that opponents will stay in with any kind of crap and then suddenly when they get a hand they think the fish will magically perform some expert hand reading and find a fold. Bet it, raise it and then bet it and raise it again and again until it's obvious you have a problem or the hand is over. Especially with a vulnerable bottom set like this one you need to hit it hard and leave the fancy play for the experts.

You know what the most common entry is for post-flop play in my notes? "Typical donk slowplay when flopped XYZ" where XYZ is a set or better. And it's not even close. If the fish spent a fraction of the time playing good ABC poker that they spent instead trying to be tricky we'd make a lot less money. I find it hilarious that everyone knows how to slow-play and bluff but they can't find a pre-flop chart or a value bet to save their lives. That they don't respect your raises is a GOOD thing. I'm thankful because against good players I would completely suck.

critikal · #19 05-14-2006, 01:11 PM

I think you have to bet this flop. The PFR'er is last to act, so I bet, hoping that he will raise and we can trap the people in the middle. Since you checked, I think you should 3 bet on the flop. The remaining callers are getting like 19-2, so a value raise is good.

HouseCalls · #20 05-14-2006, 01:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 2, 2.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 raises, 3 folds, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) 6, 7, 2 (5 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, MP3 raises, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the heck of it I went back to TOP to see how this hand compared to its "Requirements for Slowplaying." Here they are:

You must have a very strong hand. Meh. Its strong but not very strong. As Webster said sets are almost always vulnerable and this is bottom set.

The card you are allowing others players to get must have good paossiblities of making them a second best hand. Not really. If someone has 6x or 7x or an overpair then the free cards they are getting beat you. There are not alot of hands they can improve to that don't pass you by.

The free card must have little chance of making someone a better hand than yours or of giving that person a draw with sufficient odds to call. Again, anyone with 7x, 6x or an overpair could make a better hand than you. Plus there is a potential oesd available if either a 5 or an 8 comes on the turn.

You must be sure you will drive other players out by shoeing sggression, but have a good chance of winning a big pot if you don't. I'm not sure you can ever be sure of this in the micros as people love to call you here, especially on a non-threatening board like this when you did not raise PF.

The pot must not be very large. Actually 5 players in a pot that was raised PF is pretty big.

So yeah I bet the flop too.