Stealing with Axo. (theoryish but short)

[Fallen Hero]

Ax is very likely the best hand, a suited 2-gapper isn't. As Isura said you're probably not playing your top pair hands very well.

[Pokey]

Here's why I completely disagree with OP and think that A7o is a solid stealing hand:

When you are stealing the blinds, you're facing two completely unknown hands. They are totally random -- TOTALLY random. How does A7o fare against two random hands? It wins at showdown a bit over 39% of the time. Triumphing over that will be REMARKABLY difficult for your opponents.

1. If nobody hits, you're likely to win at a showdown based on card strength alone.
2. You'll have position all hand long -- that means you can abuse any signs of weakness and exit cheaply if your opponents catch a hand.
3. A pair of aces against the blinds is likely a WINNING hand, not a losing hand, and if you really are in kicker trouble, you will quickly figure that out and be able to exit gracefully.
4. Blind stealing is a semibluff -- you're mostly betting against your opponent's hands, but you've still got two cards to fall back on. If one of those cards is an ace, even better.
5. If you steal often (like I do) then your opponents are in an awful mess preflop: if they call frequently, then your ace-high steals are actually value bets against villain's range, and if they fold frequently, then your steals are +EV on FE alone.
6. Say your opponent has A8o and calls your preflop bet. Now the flop comes K92r. How does he proceed in a way that makes him money in the long run? Sure, his hand dominates yours, but he'll never know it, because he'll never see a showdown. Given that you've each got an ace, the odds that the flop will contain an ace are about 8-to-1 against; 7/8ths of the time, you don't have to worry about this issue.

Know your opponents and know how to steal effectively and A7o becomes a GREAT stealing hand.

[cbloom]

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I hate to hijack here, but if its folded to you in the CO, you fold ATo cbloom?

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No, that's not actually true. But I do steal with T8s from MP/EP . Also, if it's limped to me on the button, I'll usually fold ATo and sometimes raise with T8s. ATo is a great pure steal hand but it can't handle any heat at all postflop.

[vulturesrow]

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I hate to hijack here, but if its folded to you in the CO, you fold ATo cbloom?

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No, that's not actually true. But I do steal with T8s from MP/EP . Also, if it's limped to me on the button, I'll usually fold ATo and sometimes raise with T8s. ATo is a great pure steal hand but it can't handle any heat at all postflop.

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Full ring or 6max? I dunno man, sounds like you are giving up a lot here but from your posts it seems that you play much tighter than I do anyhow. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I mean ATo, gives you a edge on most other hands, a coinflip against some, and you are crushed by only a few.

[Ra_]

Thanks for the comments, I still steal with these hands. I just noticed yesterday how very rarely they ever get shown down. Just thought i might learn something banging it around.

Pokey,
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Given that you've each got an ace, the odds that the flop will contain an ace are about 8-to-1 against; 7/8ths of the time, you don't have to worry about this issue.

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This is a very good point, one i have not taken into account.

I think some of the other arguments are a little weak.

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1. If nobody hits, you're likely to win at a showdown based on card strength alone.
2. You'll have position all hand long -- that means you can abuse any signs of weakness and exit cheaply if your opponents catch a hand.
3. A pair of aces against the blinds is likely a WINNING hand, not a losing hand, and if you really are in kicker trouble, you will quickly figure that out and be able to exit gracefully.
4. Blind stealing is a semibluff -- you're mostly betting against your opponent's hands, but you've still got two cards to fall back on. If one of those cards is an ace, even better.
5. If you steal often (like I do) then your opponents are in an awful mess preflop: if they call frequently, then your ace-high steals are actually value bets against villain's range, and if they fold frequently, then your steals are +EV on FE alone.
6. Say your opponent has A8o and calls your preflop bet. Now the flop comes K92r. How does he proceed in a way that makes him money in the long run? Sure, his hand dominates yours, but he'll never know it, because he'll never see a showdown. Given that you've each got an ace, the odds that the flop will contain an ace are about 8-to-1 against; 7/8ths of the time, you don't have to worry about this issue.


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1. If nobody hits, you'll take it down with a c-bet mostly.
2. The hand doesn't matter
3. A pair of aces is likely the winning hand, but usually only gets action from draws or hands that beat you. leaving you with tough decisions. (i realize this assumes decent opponents)
5. I do steal often, but i think most of the value of it comes from stealing lots of tiny pots and winning a few big pots. Any hand can steal the tiny pots, but you rarely win the big pots with Axo.
6. Say your opponent has A8o and calls your preflop bet. Now the flop comes K92r. I think this situation you take it with any hand you raised with.

I'm a little argumentative by nature if you can't tell [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
But it helps me learn.

[Fallen Hero]

I'm guessing you haven't seen enough guys call the flop and the turn with KQ, no pair no draw.

[Jamougha]

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I still steal with these hands. I just noticed yesterday how very rarely they ever get shown down.

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I very rarely seem to show down AK, doesn't mean I don't make money with it...

[vulturesrow]

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1. If nobody hits, you'll take it down with a c-bet mostly.

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Youre missing the point. Sometimes I'll CB get called, check behind on the turn and river and win with A-high. Doubtful you win with T-high

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2. The hand doesn't matter


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Why not?

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3. A pair of aces is likely the winning hand, but usually only gets action from draws or hands that beat you. leaving you with tough decisions. (i realize this assumes decent opponents)


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Dont you want action with draws when you have the best hand (assuming it isnt a super strong draw)? Also depending on an opponent, you will often get some action from worse hands. We would have a hard time making money at this game if it werent for people calling down with middle pair etc.

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5. I do steal often, but i think most of the value of it comes from stealing lots of tiny pots and winning a few big pots. Any hand can steal the tiny pots, but you rarely win the big pots with Axo.


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you are right a lot of the value is from what you said. I think you are grossly underestimating the value of those "tiny pots" in both monetary value and metagame value. Incidentally in my last two sessions, Ive doubled up with A2o and A5o.

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6. Say your opponent has A8o and calls your preflop bet. Now the flop comes K92r. I think this situation you take it with any hand you raised with.

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This is probably true