Live 1/2 PLO hand with deep stacks

[haz31]

first time my local casino has spread PLO at this low stakes before. 1/2 buyin 50-200. Most of the players are fish and killing the game. Villian 1 and 2 are very good players, everyone else on table is fish

Villan 1 has 1300, Villan 2 has 300, Hero has ~800

UTG limps
MP1 Villan 1 limps
MP2 Villan 2 raises 11
MP3 Hero calls (Kd Kh, Jd, 8h)
CO folds
Button folds
SB calls
BB calls (Very loose table)
UTG folds
Villian 2 calls

Flop
4s Jc Jh
Checked to villian 2 who pots it for 49, I don't give villian 2 credit for a jack, or a house, more likely QQ-KK-AA continuation betting hoping to make a weak jack fold.

Whats your line here?

Assuming I don't believe him and repot it to 200 to go (wether this was the correct play can be argued above)

Villian 1 (who had checked the flop) cold calls my repot and everyone else folds.

(pot ~450)
Turn
Qh

Villian 1 checks, Hero???

My thoughts at the time, do I give him credit for being full? if he's not, can I make him fold AJ here? There is very little I can beat here, but given that he is a solid thinking player who views me as a very solid player do I simply give up or try get him off AJ if thats what he has?

Given his cold-call on the flop he would seem to like his hand alot, but he could of just been trying to keep the pot small with AJ?

Does anyone have any thoughts on any other lines or anything about the hand, been thinking about this one all night.

[Aisthesis]

I absolutely HATE this kind of situation!

My problem here is mainly that if you don't take it down right there, as you presumably can (and did) against the raiser, the fact that you have a big pair decreases your improvement outs. Instead of 9 outs to the stone cold with something like 89TJ, you now have only 5.

For that reason, I'll typically just call the flop here, giving the raiser his presumed 2-outer (that has on occasion come back to bite me, but if an A turns, I'm gone).

I don't think your opponent is full, as I don't see a check call on the flop with a check on the turn in that case. But I do consider it very likely that he has AJ, but he could also have a wrap-hand with a J, and you're ahead, but he still has 9 outs. It's POSSIBLE that he made his Q and is trapping, but I don't think that would be a very good play since you may still have as many as 6 outs to outrun him. I suppose he could do it on AKQJ, but I don't think it would be a very good play on anything else.

Maybe it's weak-tight, but I'm just not willing to play for $800 against one of the good players at the table in such a difficult situation. I'm going to check the turn given the betting sequence, and I'll have to see what he does on the river.

The disadvantage of this line is certainly that you're also telling him that you're not full yet. I'm looking on the river for any card 7 or smaller. I'm still not planning on betting the river here barring a K, but I'll have some willingness to call a river bet if it's 7 or smaller.

[BluffTHIS!]

I would probably pot the original preflop raiser there, but a 3rd player calling that wouldn't make me happy, because having a pair in your hand decreases your chances of filling against a non-pair hand with a J, and is beat by AJ if neither of you fills.

So I would check behind on the turn, both in order to avoid being checkraised by QJ and to take the free card, and to make the guy wonder whether the Q or whatever card came on the river helped me or not in the case he isn't full, thus *ususally* deterring him from betting a worse or better non-full hand and be able to see a free river. When you bet and get checkraised, you are giving up a lot of your power of position.

[piiop]

General Question: If you were villain, what would you do with AJT9 and JT97 in this situation?

To Ais and Bluff: What size bet would you call/not call on the river depending on the card (obv on K you raise)?

[Aisthesis]

Well, J4 is little bizarre in a raised pot and should really only be the result of having a hand like your KK with J and 4 as side cards.

I don't know, the general question is already very difficult. If the pot weren't already very inflated (e.g., if you had flat called), I'd probably have to raise AJT9 and call without the A.

I guess I probably start getting a little worried/WT in these enormous pots, though. While it's obvious that you don't really need to be full to make that raise given the situation, I just hate to get terribly gambly for that kind of money.

If I were EP, I think the correct play is this (aside from whether or not I'd have the cojones to do it): Simply forget about any J without the A (such as JT97) or the 4 and fold. But re-raise any J hand with an A and 2 additional live cards (i.e., bigger than 4) on the flop.

On your additional question: It would depend a lot on the type of player I'm dealing with. Actually, full pot looks to me more like trying to buy assuming you're not full. So, I wouldn't NECESSARILY fold even to full pot once I was in that far. But in order to call it, I'd have to have a read on the guy as fairly LAG-ish and very willing to attack perceived weakness on my part.

The thing is, the turn is likely to be less than a Q. So, if he's pretty tight and solid, I think he's almost going to have to check the river to you unless he actually IS full.

I think the river call (for me, anyway) is more dependent on my read of the player than on actual betting quantity. If he's pretty gamy, I think I'll have to call even full pot. If not, I'll fold it even to half-pot. Much less than half-pot, and I don't think I can lay it down, so he can just have that much if he's full or has AJ.

Anyhow, this whole situation is my real reason for playing more cautiously on the flop itself. The pot just gets so big that it makes me extremely uncomfortable playing your hand. So, I think I still like flat calling more than raising, even though it is probably objectively too WT.

[BFlush]

What casino is this/Where?

[haz31]

[ QUOTE ]
What casino is this/Where?

[/ QUOTE ]

Crown Casino, Melbourne Australia

[zwolf]

UTG limps
MP1 Villan 1 limps
MP2 Villan 2 raises 11
MP3 Hero calls (Kd Kh, Jd, 8h)
CO folds
Button folds
SB calls
BB calls (Very loose table)
UTG folds
Villian 2 calls


ok so the action above is pre-flop
I think the mistake here is;
limp
limp
raise
call ?????????????????????(this is for sure a pot reraise)

than hopefully the limpers fold, or call any reraise in which case y have a good hand and a big pot.

I think the reraise on the flop is good, the fact the player called is hard to analise without knowing the players.

y must ask yourself if y are willing to lose your money here,the games in my local casino are very loose, players will call almost any draw no matter what the odds so if their lightly to pay you off later when you have the nuts this is a good image building hand (if he has you beat allready), especially if its early in the night. That Q is a bad card for you but you may still be ahead here.

[Troll_Inc]

[ QUOTE ]
General Question: If you were villain, what would you do with AJT9 and JT97 in this situation?

To Ais and Bluff: What size bet would you call/not call on the river depending on the card (obv on K you raise)?

[/ QUOTE ]

What about 4456 single or doublesuited for a villain?

[cmyr]

[ QUOTE ]

What about 4456 single or doublesuited for a villain?

[/ QUOTE ]

no good player is cold-calling a reraise OOP w/ the underboat. esp on a JJ4 board, you can't really give your opponent credit for J4**, so I think it'd be a repot.

I think checking the turn is good.